Gender and Sexuality in WoT

It is at least a little ironic that gender and sexuality inform some of the most important criticism of WoT, because in so many ways, RJ made great leaps along those lines in comparison to the fantasy authors that came before him, and in comparison to others of his generation. The very nature of the WoT world theoretically requires that RJ take an approach to gender roles and relationships that is more or less egalitarian, or even biased more toward females than toward males.

But in my experience, the most common criticism of WoT across the board - aside from the drag in the mid-late books - has to do with RJ's treatment of gender and sexuality. These criticisms are not entirely fabricated by people who don't like WoT because what happens in practice in WoT is often quite different from what we should theoretically expect. I have spent a good deal of time hanging out on WoT forums over the years, and I've also spent a good bit of time at Malazan Empire, and I've tried to keep up with the WoT threads at Westeros too, though I rarely post at the latter. Those two forums tend more to criticism of WoT than love for it, and I've also found much the same at other forums I've browsed, but those arguments are far from absent at WoT forums. You will even hear them from HCFFs like me from time to time. Why is that?

You can easily find similar criticisms from bloggers and journalists who are more respected in the WoT fandom than I am, such as Abby Goldsmith and Leigh Butler (ask around for one of the infamous pillow friend debates at her tor.com reread). These guys are big fans of WoT, and big fans of RJ, but they still feel the need to criticize. Why is that, do you think? I mean, can't we just shut up about it? RJ was inclusive of homosexuality, wasn't he? He was better at creating strong women than anyone in epic fantasy before him, wasn't he? Leigh in particular is often criticized by her readers for bringing up the subject so often, especially the pillow friends business. Why would she do that? Isn't once enough to make the point?

I can only speak for myself, but as someone who loves WoT more than most people, I of course agree with at least some of Brandon's reasoning here:

Brandon
Man, people sure are quick to accuse RJ of sexism on my twitter feed & facebook. I think any who do this are blatantly wrong.
Brandon
It's okay to not like the books, or to think RJ did a bad job w/characterizations. I disagree, but everyone's tastes are different.
Brandon
But he took great pains to create many strong female protagonists with a variety of strengths, and gave them their own stories.
Brandon
Yes, there are (More than a few) sexist people in the wot. And the culture has been influenced by the male/female interactions of the power.
Brandon
However, if you look at the time devoted to female viewpoints--and the plots of those characters--the "RJ is sexist" theory erodes.
 Brandon
As a nod to those who truly know feminist literary theory, I'll make a less "Twitter friendly" argument. Robert Jordan, by creating a world where the women and men are very aware of gender roles, spent a lot of time delving into these topics. I'm convinced he was aware of male privilege, and though biased--as all of us are--sought very hard to overcome his own biases by creating evocative female characters with plot lines that do not center around the obtaining of favor or romantic interest from male characters. He also sought to create a world where women were not defined by how they were viewed by men, but were instead defined by their intelligence, determination, and accomplishments. In this way, though he exposes some small masculine biases in various areas, he was extremely progressive as a dominant male writer of his era, and should be regarded as anything other than "sexist" for his efforts. /Scholarly Brandon

I've seen much the same from him before. I understand that it is his job now to defend RJ's legacy - he has said as much in the past - and I also understand that he might have even been inclined to give the same defense even if it were not his job to do so. But I do think that the issue of sexism in WoT needs to be addressed, and I believe it needs to be addressed on a regular basis, despite the fact that because most people's opinions won't change right now. It needs to be addressed because to ignore the subject is passive acceptance of it, and in order for these biased cultural norms to actually change, we have to reject them, even if we respect the source. Why? Because this is not about RJ - who is, after all, one of my heroes (along with Bach and Chopin) - but about the world in which we live.

On searching for some links, I noticed that someone else already blogged on this subject. For the record, I disagree that WoT was not progressive in this area. It certainly was, especially in the context of blockbusters in the genre and RJ's generation. Extremely progressive. As an advocate against sexual repression, I find that there is a lot to like in WoT. But it cannot be denied that all of RJ's steps in the direction of sexual freedom for women are filtered through the eyes of his generation, despite the fact that he was ahead of his peers, and they are filtered through the preferences of a heterosexual male. The result of that is sexism, plain and simple.

I agree with Brandon that RJ does not really deserve to be remembered as a sexist. Some might also say that Martin Luther doesn't deserve to be remembered as an antisemite... (Did I just Godwin this post? If so, I'll preempt it with a warning to take it with a grain of salt.) ...and that's true too, in his cultural context. Even my hero Chopin was guilty of antisemitism (not completely sure about Bach, but I would be rather surprised and delighted if his hands were clean). But most fortunately, Martin Luther and Bach and Chopin mostly remembered for their accomplishments, despite the fact that most scholars recognize that Luther in particular (since we are all probably familiar with those writings) was indeed rather racist, from an objective perspective. It is important to recognize this fact because it is important to recognize, from a progressive perspective, that Luther's opinions were wrong.

The sexual freedom of the women might not be so important if WoT weren't so sexually charged - and despite its mostly safe-for-children approach to sexuality (mostly via means of aiming over their heads), WoT is rather sexually charged. I love RJ, and I will always be one of his biggest fans, but just because RJ passed the Bechdel Test with flying colors does not mean that these wrongs should not be addressed. As for my various readings of the common criticisms, I find that at non-WoT forums, it is more common to find a general criticism of RJ's ability to create female characters who are both likeable and believable, but at WoT forums, I find that the frustration at this fact is vented on the female characters themselves, as if they were real people...and I have to wonder if that is a particularly healthy way to go about it. It's not even close to a small problem at WoT forums - it's pervasive.

Like Luther, I hope that RJ will be remembered mostly for his accomplishments, but I also hope that the sexism in WoT will one day be as widely-recognized as the racism in Luther's writing (though these wrongs are not precisely comparable - keep the grain of salt in mind). When that happens, then it probably won't be necessary for people like me to harp on the subject again and again, but so long as there is such a fierce defensive reaction every time the subject is raised, then it will be necessary to keep bringing it up. Why? To quote Oscar Wilde: 'Life imitates art far more than art imitates life.'

I love RJ, and I love WoT - again, more than most - but I want the world to change.

/Scholarly Terez

PS - For those who were reading my blog, I'm sorry about taking off. My life has been a trainwreck lately (which is, of course, all my fault). I will be back, and I'm not precisely going anywhere anyway. :)

Update (March 12 10:58 pm):

Brandon

I can see where you're coming from, but I still think almost everything (including the things in Abby's essay, which I've read) are more importantly aligned with Robert Jordan trying to create a realistic world where the One Power's gender imbalance has affected things, mixed with his attempts to create cultures with Earth parallels somewhere in the mid 1800's. Simply put, if there WEREN'T some of these gender imbalances in cultures, the books wouldn't feel realistic. Once we remove that, we're left with a few of the smaller things--the spanking issue, the issue of female nudity, treatments of homosexuality, and the narrative's fondness for noticing female anatomy. Much smaller issues, I believe, though still there. (I think the female nudity, by the way, is RJ trying to approach some of the concepts of the 'sacred feminine' as you see in feminist writings by people like Plath and Sexton--in which female nudity and menstruation are often associated with ritual and power.)

Terez

I didn't read all of the conversations you had about it on Twitter and Facebook, and I didn't really have gender roles in mind so much as other things. I understand what you're saying about how his world requires certain gender imbalances - I addressed that sort of offhandedly in my post by saying that the 'in practice' roles in WoT are often not what you would theoretically expect considering the circumstances. And while RJ often made comparisons to various time periods in the real world in reference to technology in particular, I'm not talking about that - I'm talking about the theoretical result of the history of the WoT world. Many of the gender imbalances are logical, but many are not, which is why they don't feel realistic at all to many readers.

The main problem I had with your comments is that you said that anyone who accused RJ of sexism for whatever reason was 'blatantly wrong'. You sort of trivialize those things that we are 'left with' after cutting away the complex and subjective debate over gender roles, but those things we are left with are so pervasive in the novels that they give an overall impression of an old-fashioned and often casually sexist man behind the curtain. This is a big turn-off for some people, and while I feel that those who cannot overlook it are missing out on one of the greatest stories of all time, I understand that it is a legitimate complaint.

As for the female nudity...just no. :p I mean, I know you read all the interviews at one point. 'No Male Nudity' (NMN) was not quite as popular as RAFO, but it was definitely one of his favorite stock answers (especially in reference to movie questions - it was his 'one rule') for a good few years. He was pretty blatant about his preferences there, and while I'm sure he had several cultural influences in mind, in the end it's pretty clear that he just enjoyed writing about naked women more than he enjoyed writing about naked men.

I agree that it's wrong to judge RJ as a *person* anachronistically, but at the same time, I think it's wrong to make such a blanket statement about the veracity of our claims of sexism in WoT. It's there, and it's real. I agree that some people take the criticism too far without considering certain things - I've had these debates (on non-WoT forums especially) many times over the years - but it seems to me more constructive to criticize the exaggerations, or to criticize each argument on its own merits, than to denounce any and all claims of sexism in WoT in one fell swoop.

Update (March 14, 2011 4:44 pm):

Brandon

The "Blatantly Wrong" comment was for those who don't really know feminist theory or gender studies, and who were commenting that sexist characters and culture implied a sexist Robert Jordan. I thought better of it later, however, for the people who actually know what they're talking about. Hence the more scholarly comment directed toward people like yourself. I do not deny that there are things to talk about here. Remember, just like with the word "Racism," there are two meanings of the word "Sexist." There is the knee-jerk usage by people who intend it as an insult. And then there is the more thoughtful, careful usage by people who make a study of such things. In their hands, 'sexist' means showing one's biases and a lack of awareness of certain aspects of male privilege or gender sensitivity--using this word to describe someone is not an insult, but a description of bias. (The types of biases that we all have, and can't totally expunge--though we be aware of and try to compensate for them.) My first comment was directed at the first crowd; my second comment at the second crowd.

Terez

Okay, that's fair enough. I tried searching your comments for an implication like that but couldn't find anything concrete.

Update (20 March 2011 5:19 am):

(This should be the last update as Brandon is planning on doing a blog post, presumably. If he does that I might respond in another post...unless, of course, I agree with everything he says, in which case I'll just link it here.)

Brandon on Twitter - 20 March 2011 

Re: NMN. I'll give you this point in regards to Rhuidean. No good reason for Aviendha to be nude when Rand/Mat don't have to be.
Brandon
As for the Aes Sedai ceremonies, they still feel very similar to sacred feminine ceremonies I've read before.
Terez
Sure, but most of the female nudity comes in the sweat tents and baths, etc. Though the baths in Fal Dara were egalitarian.
Terez
The descriptions of how Aviendha squats in the sweat tent, for instance, are really quite vulgar if you think about it.
Terez
But you don't see anything like that in the bath scene at Baerlon, for example. And even ritual nudity can get vulgar...
Terez
...like Amys at the sister-bonding ceremony in WH. I mean, come on.
James Powell
There's certainly lots o female iffy WoT nudity, but also quite a lot of male nudity - especially Rand being ogled.
Terez
Yeah, Rand does get ogled once at least. But it's a matter of balance in my opinion.
Terez
Greatest Cadsuane line ever: 'I’ve already seen more of your hairless bottomcheeks than I wish to...'
Terez
'....but if you want to flaunt them in front of all six of us, perhaps someone will enjoy the show.' :)
James Powell
I'm not saying that the nudity issue is balanced - clearly, it's not. But at least *some* effort was being made.
Terez
Yeah, @BrandSanderson and I have gone round a bit on this already. We all recognize that some effort was made. Just saying...
Terez
...that these things were the product of RJ's heterosexual male preferences, and therefore inherently sexist.
Seth Baker
Based largely upon the male characters being prudes. Doesn't that cut the other way for M/F sexual experience?
Terez
Not really, since the root cause is still RJ's brain. And Mat. Is far from a prude.
Terez
But we're at the same time not trying to make RJ out to be particularly sexist. He wasn't, especially for his Age.
James Powell
*nods* I'm more saddened by the almost complete lack of gay WoT characters - but that's just my personal bias.
Terez
No, it's not just your personal bias. It was RJ's. If there hadn't been lesbians you probably wouldn't care, eh?
James Powell
I actually found the whole issue of some women being "pillow friends", but then growing out of it and mooning over men, quite off.
Terez
Right, and the fact that the ones who don't grow out of it are for the most part evil bitches.
Lira Leirner
There are SOME implications of being gay being equally as normal, as outlined here http://ow.ly/4imXS
Terez
Oh, we know. But it's a half-hearted implication. Not even close to half really...
Brandon
Well, at least there wasn't the "Gay=pedophile" implication that some fantasy of the era made...
Brandon
Of course, being Mormon, perhaps I'm not the best qualified to speak of someone's treatment of LGBT issues.
Luckers
Are you sure the nudity doesn't play a practical role in the ter'angreal? I note that in both the...
Luckers
...Accepted rings and the final test the woman must be nude. Strange, two separate rituals taking the same form.
Lira Leirner
And Moiraine, too. I think it's probably the rings. The other testing ter'angreal all require nakedness.
Lira
Aviendha doesn't have to be naked when she goes through the columns. Although I thought they could have told...
Lira
...them to take off their clothes once they're in Rhuidean; don't see needing to taking them off before.
Terez
It's not a requirement of the ter'angreal according to them, but a sign of station¹ (humbling).
Terez
Also, with Aviendha, there was the practical aspect of giving up her cadin'sor.
Terez
It's the same with the raisings at the Tower - they never wear those clothes again IIRC.²
Brandon
I think Terez's argument is that women end up in these situations suspiciously more often than men.
Terez
Essentially yes. And that the description is more gratuitous. RJ could have chosen to write male nudity rituals.
Luckers
Mmm. True, but as I've argued in the past re: lack of gay men--we've been more exposed to all female...
Luckers
...organisations and rituals. the one exception, I suppose, is the sweat tents, but again that occurred...
Luckers
...organically. The Wise Ones were planning, and the sweat tents provided a social medium.
Luckers
BTW my original point was simply that Moiraine and Aviendha's nudity may have served a practical purpose...
Luckers
...when going through the ter'angreal--Mat and Rand didn't go through that ter'angreal after all.
Luckers
It's strange that the Aes Sedai and Wise Ones separately built nudity rituals around similar ter'angreal. Necessary?³
Terez
Organically? You say that as if the scene wrote itself. RJ chose to use female sweat tent scenes, female nudity.
Terez
Even if the nudity does have a practical purpose that doesn't change the fact that he chose to write it that way.
Terez
He chose to develop the female organizations, and he chose to show lesbians outside those organizations rather than men.
Luckers
He chose to write the scene with Rand naked and being eyed by a dozen women too. So what?
Terez
Again, it's about balance. The 'suspiciously more often' bit. I feel you are being overly defensive about it.
Luckers
Are we to presume he did it lasciviously? To titillate? This is what I meant by it happening organically.
Luckers
I'm not being defensive--rather I don't see the problem. The female nudity was never vulgar... it just was.
Terez
As I said, it's clear enough he just enjoyed writing about naked women and lesbians more than he enjoyed...
Terez
....writing about naked men and gay men. It's fanservice, but I don't think he thought of it like that.
Brandon
I've got to side with Terez on this one. It IS there. RJ did a LOT of things with great equality, but...
Brandon
...when it came to nudity, he liked showing naked women more than men. I don't think it was vulgar, though.
Terez
Depends on your definition of vulgar. RJ was very good at avoiding vulgarity on the surface, but hinting at it.
Luckers
I still think that implies a little too much premeditation in the depiction, but I'm happy with your description.
Luckers
I'm not denying its presence, I'm denying the implications that the depiction is wrong. It flowed naturally...
Luckers
...from the plot, and wasn't lascivious. I certainly don't think RJ worked to include it.
Luckers
Besides... if you wanna have a gay male character in aMoL I'd not complain. :)
Terez
Okay then. Do you think that RJ's insistence that there be no male nudity in the films was 'organic'?
Terez
That is where this little debate started, because it is essentially the proof of the point.
Brandon
Ha. Well (though I'm on your side) it could be argued that's a marketing decision.
Terez
LOL. Many things could be argued. Some arguments are more logical than others, though. :)
Luckers
I didn't know about this insistence. That's a little... weird, honestly. No, ok, a lot weird.
Terez
See, if you had actually read my debate with @BrandSanderson we wouldn't have to catch you up. ;)
Brandon
It's cultural, unfortunately. You can have female nudity and get a PG-13. But not male. Of course, that...
Brandon
...leads us to the whole topfreedom debate, which ISN'T something I really want to get into.
Terez
It doesn't necessarily lead there. Again, I bring it up mostly for cultural awareness reasons.
Luckers
That's really stupid--but does make some sense. Also, I don't know if you remember Terez but for a while there was...
Luckers
...some fairly rampant pockets of homophobia amongst the fandom--I had this discussion with @zemaille at WorldCon.⁴
Terez
There still is. It's mostly visible at tor.com - some staunch conservatives there.⁵
Linda
Oh yeah!
Terez
Which is unfortunate considering Leigh's views. There is a ruckus every time she brings it up.
Luckers
*nods* And as sad as it is to think that RJ was wary of this--it's reasonable to avoid alienating your fans.
Terez
Well, if he was trying to avoid alienating THOSE fans he wouldn't have included lesbians either.
Luckers
Mmm. Lesbians have always been the safer homosexual depiction--which says alot about our society.
Seth Baker
In the end, you're indicting modern Western society, not RJ himself. He knew what you can't do and sell.
Terez
The first bit, yes. The second bit...I don't think that marketing was his only motive.
Seth
There're people who are not morally opposed to homosexuality, are fine with reading FF, but not MM for what it's worth.
Terez
And that is exactly the problem that is being addressed. Not judging RJ so much as ourselves.
Luckers
I hesitate to ask--but what's topfreedom. My mind went to an icky place. :S
Terez
LOL. I imagine it has to do with the fact that men can go shirtless but women can't.
Luckers
OH! That's... much nicer than what I was thinking. Hehe.
Luckers
I will say this, though--the complete lack of any sort of hetero-normative assumption⁶ in WoT gets RJ my vote.
Brandon
I wish this plane would let me use Tweetlonger to jump into this with more teeth.
Terez
Feel free to jump in with teeth later. We're not going anywhere. :)
Luckers
Yes. More teeth would be awesome! But we aren't going anywhere.
Brandon
This whole issue--homosexuality, conservatism, and the WoT--deserves a serious, thoughtful post.
Brandon
I just can't do that in 100 character bursts.
Terez
Cool. I am looking forward to it.
Luckers
I respect that Brandon. Still, post what you want--we understand its not your full argument.
Brandon
I will say that there IS a gay male in TofM, placed there on my part as I felt similar to you on this issue.
Brandon
I was going to tell you who it was, but figuring this out is the sort of thing you guys love, isn't it?
Terez
YAY! But of course, then you have to be careful not to make him too throw-away....
Terez
I considered Androl earlier, when I considered you might do this. lol. But I will think on it some more.
Luckers
Oh. Hey! Awesome. Ok, now we have to figure it out.
Luckers
Hopefully not Denezel or Hatch⁷--their wives would be furious. :D
Brandon
Yes. I won't say if it's a new character or one I made a decision on, since there weren't notes either way.
Terez
And he seems to have ruled out Moridin, alas. But that would be sort of Dumbledore-y anyway.⁸
Terez
(And yes, I have read @BrandSanderson's thoughts on Dumbledore. Just saying. And we're not talking kids' books here.)
Luckers
I'm beginning to think it somewhat strange that I'm the one defending RJ the heaviest given your points...
Luckers
... and the fact that I'm gay. Does that mean my loyalty to RJ defies reason, or that I'm so used to accepting...
Luckers
...the dribbles that are depictions of homosexuality in fantasy? A disturbing thought.
Terez
Nah, not weird at all. You're pretty anti-activist in a lot of ways. Overcompensation, of course. ;)
Terez
I believe you are sensitive to the right-wing idea of the Gay Agenda.
Terez
So you seem to have a reluctance to champion your own causes too loudly, internally as well as externally.
Terez
In some ways it's a healthy reluctance. In some ways, it's sad that it is necessary.
Luckers
Well the gays are plotting world domination--we discussed this in our last High Council. But that's another conversation.
Brandon
You have good reason to defend him, Luckers. There ARE good examples. Arrela is one.
Terez
Seonid isn't bad either. Right? :D I think they might have been responses to the criticism.
Luckers
*nods* Arrela's love was beautiful. And your scene in tGS was heartbreaking.
Brandon
Yes, gay men are few and far between. But it could be much worse. See: Eddings, or worse, Goodkind and Newcomb.

Seth Baker
I'm with you on that. I got bored reading Goodkind because of how annoyingly ANTI-PC it was.
Seth
In the end, I want my stories to refrain from editorializing. Tell the story, and tell it to your audience.
Brandon
Goodkind is...well, let's not go there. It's good, sometimes, to be anti-PC, as the world isn't PC.
Brandon
But if you're going to delve in and editorialize, I believe it important to look at the other side too.

Terez

I haven't read Newcomb, but yes, Goodkind's inclusion was of the worst sort.

Terez
Again, few people think RJ is all bad on this. But the fact that we are so appreciative of his rather biased...
Terez
...and gratuitous inclusion shows how far behind we are as a society.
Brandon
Ha. Terez, you NEED to read Newcomb. If only because I want to see your head explode when you do.
Terez
LOL. Well, I will bring it along to JordanCon then, so you can observe. ;)
Brandon
It is an incredible experience. Goodkind times 1000 in the anti-feminist department. And it seems unconsious.
Luckers
Goodkind disturbs me on more levels than that, but I do take your point--it was what I meant by accepting dribbles.
Brandon
The thing is, [RJ] tried. And in the end, that's the most important thing can ask. The second is that they listen.
Brandon
And I do think RJ listened. I think he grew more sensitive on this subject as time passed.
Terez
Agreed, as I noted before re: the response to criticism. Again, it's more about us than about him.
Luckers
Interesting thought--about listening and changing. Kind of beautiful as well--that fans can give back to authors.
Luckers
That RJ touched on it at all was good--especially when we remember when he was writing these books.
Luckers
It does well to remember just how much the degree to which homosexuality is depicted has changed recently.
Terez
This is true. I just feel that now is the time to blow it out of the water, for that very reason.
Brandon
I'm curious if either of you read Rose of the Prophet, and what you thought of it. (Because of the gay male character.)
Terez
hmm, nope, haven't heard of it. I was told Deathgate was the only thing by [Weiss and Hickman] worth reading.
Luckers
Do you guys realise how much Rand's early arc resonates with a gay teenager?
Luckers
A young man who--through no choice of his own--finds himself to be something hated and feared.
Luckers
Something judged to be morally wrong though no moral choice has been made on his part.
Luckers
The whole arc--the 'men's pride, men's sin' resonated very heavily with me.
Brandon
That's FASCINATING, honestly. I'd never thought of that.
Terez
I bet RJ never thought of it either. :D But yes, it's a good comparison in many ways.
Luckers
All of this is why I never liked Mat in my first readings (when i was like 13). His reaction to Rand was...
Luckers
... a little to close to home. And no I havn't read [Rose of the Prophet]--I will now though. (sorry for going on this tangent).
Luckers
It doesn't really matter to me if RJ meant the comparison--that he depicted something similar with such...
Luckers
...visceral realism is the value of a great writer, because then the fans can take what they need from it.
Luckers
And in truth Rand's arc in dealing with it taught me how to. In fact its one of the reasons I love Cadsuane...
Terez
Because Cadsuane was Rand's faghag? No wait, that was Min! No, she was his beard...
Luckers
She doesn't feel sorry for Rand, or try to coddle him--she treats him like she would any other person...
Luckers
Her refusal to let Rand allow circumstance to victimize him was a powerful and subtle theme.
Terez
Indeed, that's why I like her. And why most people hate her. Because she should respect his authoritay!
Luckers
And I think it is the greatest service anyone in the books has done him. Even if Rand couldn't appreciate it.
Luckers
Re: Parallels between Rand's early arc and being gay... http://tl.gd/9d303a

Quote:

"No, I can't. I mean . . . I didn't do it on purpose. It just happened. I don't want to - to channel the Power. I won't ever do it again. I swear it."

"You don't want to," the Amyrlin Seat said. "Well, that's wise of you. And foolish, too. Some can be taught to channel; most cannot. A few, though, have the seed in them at birth. Sooner or later, they wield the One Power whether they want to or not, as surely as roe makes fish. You will continue to channel, boy. You can't help it. And you had better learn to channel, learn to control it, or you will not live long enough to go mad. The One Power kills those who cannot control its flow."

"How am I supposed to learn?" he demanded. Moiraine and Verin just sat there, unruffled, watching him. Like spiders. "How? Moiraine claims she can't teach me anything, and I don't know how to learn, or what. I don't want to, anyway. I want to stop. Can't you understand that? To stop!"

--That desperation is something I remember. Then this...

Quote:

He paused, frowning, thinking things through. Finally, he said quietly, "Rand, can you channel?" Mat gave a strangled gasp. Rand let the banner drop; he hesitated only a moment before nodding wearily. "I did not ask for it. I don't want it. But. . . . But I do not think I know how to stop it."

--and finally...

Quote:

Mat hesitated, looking sideways at Rand. "Look, I know you came along to help me, and I am grateful. I really am. But you just are not the same anymore. You understand that, don't you?" He waited as if he expected an answer. None came. Finally he vanished into the trees, back toward the camp.

--Potent scenes. Especially Mat's last lines. *shrug*

Terez
Yeah, I knew exactly what you were talking about as soon as you mentioned it. Perrin isn't much better.
Terez
Perrin is just not as thoughtlessly hurtful as Mat is. He's more the silent disapproval type.
Luckers
Though Perrin does realise the hypocrisy, and feel bad, so I didn't mind so much. :)
Linda
Yes, I appreciated Perrin's sympathy and tact - like when he said Rand is now a dreaded figure.
Linda
For instance he suggested that while running was understandable, it might not be possible.
Linda
Of course, Perrin is coming to terms with being a werewolf, so understandable he knows how Rand feels.
Luckers
And with Perrin the parallel stops--Rand is a genuine threat, whereas homosexuality isn't.
Linda
Both Perrin and Rand loathe themselves because they feel they are a threat to society.
Luckers
Just got a rather abrupt tweet from someone who I think thought I was implying Rand was gay.
Luckers
Which clearly is accurate. The Harem are the Red-herring to end all red-herrings.
Terez
LOL. Yeah, well...ignorance and prejudice go hand in hand (or so they say). ;)
Terez
You know you're gay when you need THREE beards to maintain your cover.
Luckers
Lol!
Brandon
And...half of my in-flight wot reread time was sucked up by a great twitter conversation about gender and LGBT issues in the WoT.
Terez
Ohhhh, blame it on us will you! :p You knew as soon as you saw you had Twitter you weren't getting any work done. ;)
Luckers
Haha. Yeah--I've written a hundred and fifty words in three hours. Today was gonna be my productive day too. *sigh*/
Brandon
I have a new goal: to get Terez and Leigh Butler to do a feminist review of Newcomb's 5th Sorceress for Tor.com. How can I make this happen?
Peter Ahlstrom
Sadist.
Terez
LOL. If you can talk Leigh into it, I'm so down with that.
Luckers
Lol. A gay, a feminist and a Mormon walk into a bar--whereupon they have a deep and meaningful conversation about sexuality in WoT. #NoJokes
Terez
LMAO. It's funny, though...I don't really think of myself as a feminist. Just an equalist.
Luckers
I was just being funny with the no jokes thing--the reality of us three having that conversation struck me.
Terez
Not to mention, you were raised Catholic, and I was raised Southern Baptist. Now we need a Muslim...

Two more FAQ articles

The Black Tower - (a big one)

Lews Therin - (much smaller than it could have been)

Hope you like. New stuff soon.

Updates, and Yet Another WoT FAQ

I took a break from WOTRR because I was starting to bore myself with my own writing. To an extent, that's inevitable, since I'm a pretty boring writer most of the time. I will be back at it very soon, but in the meantime, I have been working on some things, such as this.

I wanted to make a FAQ that is a little more geared to the recent and open questions that have arisen since CoT (the last time the questions were really updated on the old FAQ). Since Dragonmount has only so far updated the old FAQ, many of those old questions are long since resolved, and many new questions are ignored. In the meantime, I often find myself wishing I had nice pre-made answers to common questions that are either not thoroughly covered on the DM FAQ, or not updated yet (I am very impatient), or not covered in a way that I necessarily agree with, or not covered at all.

So, here are a few articles that have been completed so far (they have been added to the blog index). Some of them were written by Marie Curie. There are several other articles planned and some in various stages of completion, and eventually I will probably move all the articles here. I'd love to hear what you think. It's possible I have overlooked a thing or two. Also, let me know if there are other questions you'd like to see addressed.

Blood on the Rocks - A full survey of the prophecies touching on Rand's death (including all the relevant quotes for easy reference), and an overview of the most plausible theories about Rand's fate.

Rand's New Sword - A breakdown of all the lovely evidence and foreshadowing surrounding the sword.

Aviendha's Babies - An overview of the plausible theories about Aviendha's Odd Babies.

Seanchan Prophecies - An analysis of the veracity of Seanchan prophecies (with quotes, of course).

The Dark Prophecies - A comprehensive look at the known Prophecies of the Shadow, and authoritative quotes on their veracity.

Mirror Worlds - A concise explanation of how Mirror Worlds work.

Can Tuon Channel? Has she already? - Everything you need to know about Tuon's ability.

The Red-Veiled 'Aiel' - What we know about them, and what we don't know.

The Right to Kill Rand - Which Forsaken has been given this privilege?

The Gholam - Is it really dead? How did it survive passage through the gateway?
 
Gaidal Cain For Noobs - The title says it all. If you believe Gaidal Cain is Olver, or anyone else in the series for that matter, click here.

WOTRR recap: TEOTW Part IV (Chapters 16-20)

Wow, this one took a while! I blame (mostly) chapter nineteen.

1) Spoilers up to TOM in every post.
2) Helpful links to the right, and hopefully within the text as well.
3) Major pontificating in ch. 19. You have been warned.

Chapter 16 - The Wisdom
Chapter 17 - Watchers and Hunters
Chapter 18 - The Caemlyn Road
Chapter 19 - Shadow's Waiting
Chapter 20 - Dust on the Wind

Chapter 16 - The Wisdom

If Min's talk of escaping in the previous chapter was not enough, here's some serious foreshadowing (along with a reminder of the escaping comment):

Perrin led the way into the depths of the inn. Rand was so intent on what he intended to say to Nynaeve that he did not see Min until she seized his arm and pulled him to one side. The others kept on a few steps down the hall before realizing he had stopped, then they halted, too, half impatient to go on, half reluctant to do so.

"We don't have time for that, boy," Thom said gruffly.

Min gave the white-haired gleeman a sharp look. "Go juggle something," she snapped, drawing Rand further away from the others.

"I really don't have time," Rand told her. "Certainly not for any more fool talk about escaping and the like."

Again, this is great foreshadowing - blatant foreshadowing. What makes it great is that it is at the same time blatant and relatively unobtrusive to the plot. By the time we get to Elayne later on, we've already forgotten that Min was a potential love interest for Rand, unless we have the audacity to assume on first read that the three women over a funeral bier indicated that Rand would have three lovers. I'd wager most of us were not that audacious. I mean, the standard Country Boy Saves the World stories are not where you expect to find this sort of thing.

Anyway, back to Min. The most interesting thing she said about Nynaeve was this:

"The sparks, Rand. She met Mistress Alys coming in, and there were sparks, with just the two of them. Yesterday I couldn't see sparks without at least three or four of you together, but today it's all sharper, and more furious." She looked at Rand's friends, waiting impatiently, and shivered before turning back to him. "It's almost a wonder the inn doesn't catch fire. You're all in more danger today than yesterday. Since she came."

I rather think the danger has to do with Rand's encounter with Padan Fain more than anything else, but the sparks with Nynaeve and Moiraine - with no ta'veren around - is a nice touch, blatantly foreshadowing their importance but in a mysterious way.

Brandon was keeping his eye out for the first braid tug of the series, and here it is (along with yet another hint of the Ultimate Showdown between the two women):

Moiraine and Nynaeve sat at opposite ends of the table, neither taking her eyes from the other. All the other chairs were empty. Moiraine's hands rested on the table, as still as her face. Nynaeve's braid was thrown over her shoulder, the end gripped in one fist; she kept giving it little tugs the way she did when she was being even more stubborn than usual with the Village Council. Perrin was right. Despite the fire it seemed freezing cold, and all coming from the two women at the table.

I didn't cover 'Ravens', the extra prologue in the split version of TEOTW because I'd never read it until a few days ago. Egwene is nine years old, and she observes that Nynaeve started tugging at her hair when she started braiding it, to remind everyone that she was an adult. Maybe it was obvious to everyone else (hell, maybe I even missed a direct mention of it elsewhere in the text), but I had never thought of it that way. I should have, with all her talk about wanting gray hairs. We learn later from Moiraine that Nynaeve looks so young because she started channeling (and slowing) years before and therefore barely looks older than Egwene.

I find it interesting because it's one thing to know that Nynaeve is tugging her braid because she's frustrated, and another to know that she's doing it because she's insecure about her apparent age and can't stand people talking down to her. Moiraine called her 'child' when they first met, and no matter what Rand thought (and no matter how keen I thought his observation), Nynaeve didn't forget it. Partly because of the events that followed, I'm sure. It's true that Nynaeve typically does not hold grudges (beyond her prejudices, that is), but she sure held one against Moiraine for a long time. And of course, we all know what her primary motivation was for most of that...but she continued to believe for a long time - like Rand - that Moiraine had ruined their lives, that they could have gone on as they were had she not come to the Two Rivers. A part of Nynaeve knew - just like Rand - that this was irrational, but a part of her believed it anyway.

Nynaeve's story about how she tracked them and Lan's amazement...seriously blatant stuff there. However, right after that, there's one I bet most missed:

"Perhaps now," Moiraine said quietly, "you will answer a few of my questions. I have answered yours freely enough."

"With a great sackful of gleeman's tales," Nynaeve retorted. "The only facts I can see are that four young people have been carried off, for the Light alone knows what reason, by an Aes Sedai."

"You have been told that isn't known here," Lan said sharply. "You must learn to guard your tongue."

"Why should I?" Nynaeve demanded. "Why should I help hide you, or what you are? I've come to take Egwene and the boys back to Emond's Field, not help you spirit them away."

Thom broke in, in a scornful voice. "If you want them to see their village again – or you, either – you had better be more careful.There are those in Baerlon who would kill her" – he jerked his head toward Moiraine – "for what she is. Him, too." He indicated Lan, then abruptly moved forward to put his fists on the table. He loomed over Nynaeve, and his long mustaches and thick eyebrows suddenly seemed threatening.

Her eyes widened, and she started to lean back, away from him; then her back stiffened defiantly. Thom did not appear to notice; he went right on in an ominously soft voice. "They'd swarm over this inn like murderous ants on a rumor, a whisper. Their hate is that strong, their desire to kill or take any like these two. And the girl? The boys? You? You are all associated with them, enough for the Whitecloaks, anyway. You wouldn't like the way they ask questions, especially when the White Tower is involved. Whitecloak Questioners assume you're guilty before they start, and they have only one sentence for that kind of guilt. They don't care about finding the truth; they think they know that already. All they go after with their hot irons and pincers is a confession. Best you remember some secrets are too dangerous for saying aloud, even when you think you know who hears." He straightened with a muttered, "I seem to tell that to people often of late."

"Well put, gleeman," Lan said. The Warder had that weighing look in his eyes again. "I'm surprised to find you so concerned."

Thom shrugged. "It's known I arrived with you, too. I don't care for the thought of a Questioner with a hot iron telling me to repent my sins and walk in the Light."

It's easy to accept Thom's explanation at face value even now, because he always gives the impression of looking out for number one, but I don't think it's coincidence he mentioned Moiraine first, or Lan next.

As for the next bit, I've always found it to be just a little bit OOC compared to the later version of Nynaeve. She is condescending in a particular sort of way that's not necessarily bad in this passage:

"You have grown." She smiled, and for a moment her amusement had him shifting his feet. "I can think of a time when you would not have questioned where I chose to go or what I chose to do, wherever or whatever it was. A time just a week ago."

He cleared his throat and pressed on stubbornly. "It doesn't make sense. Why are you really here?"

She half glanced at the still-empty doorway, then took his arm. "Let's walk while we talk."

...but it still seems a little strange compared to the way she acts before and after. Since when is Nynaeve ever happy about people questioning her? Even when Nynaeve is not being all that irritable, her requests are generally more peremptory than "Let's walk while we talk." But Brandon commented on the passage here:

Brandon
Nynaeve is a divisive force among WoT fans. Yes, she likes to call men wool-headed. Next time you read, though, watch her actions.
Brandon
She often speaks in a way influenced by her culture. But if you watch her body language and intent, she's a very different person.
Brandon
An excellent example of this is her conversation with Rand in EotW 16. She very reasonable, empathetic, and treats Rand as an adult.
Brandon
Yes, she calls all men wool-headed. If you want to understand Nynaeve, see these comments as kin to a Seanchan "May she live forever"
Brandon
Sure, she means them. Kind of. But mostly, they're just things you say when you are part of her culture.
Leah Dehnel
Its not just Nynaeve though, theres not a main character who is a women who doesn't voice these sentiments at least once...
Brandon
That's why I argue it's cultural. Makes sense in a culture where men who have magic are a danger, but women are a resource.
Mignon Fogarty
I find Nynaeve very annoying. She's such an irrational pill.
Brandon
Lol. I can't help seeing her, even still, as a big sister.

And that's a really good way to describe how Nynaeve acts in general, and it applies to the above. I like Nynaeve, but I still think that passage is OOC - as if RJ hadn't really smoothed out her character yet. I would say that later events changed her, but she was Nynaeve on the money in the early chapters.

One thing I find interesting that is easy to forget:

"...almost every man wanted to be one of the party. Tam, and Bran al'Vere, with the scales of office around his neck, and Haral Luhhan, till Alsbet made him sit down. Even Cenn Buie. The Light save me from men who think with the hair on their chests. Though I don't know as there are any other kind." She gave a hearty sniff, and looked up at him, an accusing glance. "At any rate, I could see it would be another day, perhaps more, before they came to any decision, and somehow ... somehow I was sure we did not dare wait that long. So I called the Women's Circle together and told them what had to be done. I cannot say they liked it, but they saw the right of it. And that is why I am here; because the men around Emond's Field are stubborn wool-heads. They're probably still arguing about who to send, though I left word I would take care of it."

Nynaeve essentially left the Two Rivers because of a bad feeling.  Turns out, that feeling was pretty important, and Rand telling Tam what happened was probably important as well. If Nynaeve had waited even hours later, she would have missed them, and though she could have tracked them past Caemlyn, she probably wouldn't have survived it.

You might say this is Rand's first real confirmation that Tam's fever-dreams were true:

"And she wanted to know about you boys. To see if she could reason out why you ... have attracted the kind of attention you have ... she said." She paused, watching him out of the corner of her eye. "She tried to disguise it, but most of all she wanted to know if any of you was born outside the Two Rivers."

His face was suddenly as taut as a drumhead. He managed a hoarse chuckle. "She does think of some odd things. I hope you assured her we're all Emond's Field born."

"Of course," she replied. There had only been a heartbeat's pause before she spoke, so brief he would have missed it if he had not been watching for it.

He tried to think of something to say, but his tongue felt like a piece of leather. She knows. She was the Wisdom, after all, and the Wisdom was supposed to know everything about everyone. If she knows, it was no fever-dream. Oh, Light help me, father!

And of course, Nynaeve reassures him that Tam was his father, and the way in which she does it makes it pretty clear that she is saying, 'Even if he's not your biological father, he's still your father.' But like Brandon says, this is a very real issue for Rand quite aside from the fact that it implies he might be the one that the Dark One is really looking for. He ignores that implication almost completely:

"Were any of the others born outside?" As soon as the question was out, he shook his head. "No, don't answer. It's none of my business, either." But it would be nice to know if Moiraine had some special interest in him, over and above what she had in the whole lot of them. Would it?

It's a blow to his sense of identity, his long-held definitions of himself. It takes a couple more blows, each worse than the next, to minimize the problem in Rand's brain enough that he can accept it. But one thing that I, as a Lews Therin enthusiast, find interesting is the way that his conscious mind glosses over the point about Moiraine while his small voice questions it.

Chapter 17 - Watchers and Hunters

This chapter begins with merriment in the common room at the Stag and Lion. There's not much to say about it that isn't well-known, other than maybe to say that it goes further toward painting Moiraine as human and even likable. Rand's nervousness when dancing with her is cute, and the continuing saga of Moiraine vs Nynaeve is well-played, with Nynaeve stubbornly hanging on for one more dance after Moiraine goes to bed.

The man with the scarred face has led some people to question whether Sammael had escaped from the Bore already, but it seems highly unlikely. Aginor and Balthamel seem to have just escaped when they show up at the Eye, and it's implied that they were the first to escape because they were trapped so near the surface. None of the other Forsaken seem to have suffered the aging and decomposition that those two did. Lan assumed it was a Whitecloak spy, however, and it was probably a Darkfriend spy, sent to investigate Fain's claims before the Fade was dispatched to the inn.

What is most interesting to me is the fact that Lan could sense that trouble was imminent - or perhaps Moiraine could, and told him of it:

Not for the first time, Rand wished Mat could think seriously about something for more than two minutes. Their own shoes were not very comfortable right then. "I'm going to get some milk," he said. Maybe it would help him sleep. Maybe I won't dream tonight.

Lan looked at him sharply. "There's something wrong tonight. Don't wander far. And remember, we leave whether you are awake enough to sit your saddle or have to be tied on."

I wonder if this is some part of the mysterious benefits package of becoming a Warder, or if it's just a TEOTWism. Also worth noting is that this is probably Rand's first real confirmation that Moiraine was telling the truth:

As he came out of the kitchen, drinking, a shape in dull black started toward him down the length of the hall, raising pale hands to toss back the dark cowl that had hidden the face beneath. The cloak hung motionless as the figure moved, and the face ... A man's face, but pasty white, like a slug under a rock, and eyeless. From oily black hair to puffy cheeks was as smooth as an eggshell. Rand choked, spraying milk.

"You are one of them, boy," the Fade said, a hoarse whisper like a file softly drawn across bone.

And also, the first description of how Fades travel:

Trembling, Rand knew he was going to die. Midnight steel flashed at his head . . . and stopped.

"You belong to the Great Lord of the Dark." The breathy grating of that voice sounded like fingernails scratched across a slate. "You are his."

Spinning in a black blur, the Fade darted down the hall away from Rand. The shadows at the end of the hall reached out and embraced it, and it was gone.

Lan leaped down the last stairs, landing with a crash, sword in hand.

Rand struggled to find his voice. "Fade," he gasped. "It was ..." Abruptly he remembered his sword. With the Myrddraal facing him he had never thought of it. He fumbled the heron-mark blade out now, not caring if it was too late. "It ran that way!"

Lan nodded absently; he seemed to be listening to something else. "Yes. It's going; fading. No time to pursue it, now. We're leaving sheepherder. "

We are left to wonder why the Fade let Rand go. Was it because he already had orders to capture rather than kill? Or was it because the Fade feared Lan would kill it?

This is actually one of the most detailed descriptions of a Fade traveling via shadows in the series. From the BWB:

Sight without eyes is not their only inhuman ability - they can also vanish wherever there are shadows, and travel far distances by stepping into any area of shadow, only to suddenly appear elsewhere, in a shadow far away. Even Aginor, who made the Trollocs, and thus, indirectly, the Myrddraal, was not able to discover how they could use shadow to transport themselves.

But apparently Lan could sense its presence fading.

So, of course, they decide to leave, and Thom decides that he will ride with them again. It's funny in a way, knowing that Thom will one day be Moiraine's Warder. Does he already have a desire to protect her? Lan dislikes Thom almost as much as Nynaeve dislikes Moiraine. Brandon found this worth a tweet:

Brandon
Lan to Thom, as they prepare to flee: "You can ride with us, or ride to Shayol Ghul, gleeman." Well...actually...

I suppose what he was getting at is the fact that riding with them is essentially tantamount to riding to Shayol Ghul...either in the end game, or very close to Shayol Ghul at the end of the book. Either way, Lan's dislike of Thom is amusing.

And of course, at the Caemlyn Gate, they encounter Bornhald and a few of his men. I've always thought this to be a little strange:

Moiraine's shadowed shape towered high over the log palisade, head and shoulders a deeper darkness against the night sky, surrounded by a silver nimbus from the hidden moon. As he watched, mouth hanging open, the Aes Sedai stepped over the wall. The gates began swinging shut frantically. As soon as her feet were on the ground outside, she was suddenly her normal size again.

"Hold the gates!" an unsteady voice shouted inside the wall. Rand thought it was Bornhald. "We must pursue them, and take them!" But the Watchmen did not slow the pace of closing. The gates slammed shut, and moments later the bar crashed into place, sealing them. Maybe some of those other Whitecloaks aren't as eager to confront an Aes Sedai as Bornhald.

But I suppose that the explanation is good enough. Obviously, Illusion itself does not make it possible for Moiraine to step over the wall, but it may be that she walked through the gate while her woven Illusion was stepping over it. Presumably her Illusion extended to hiding her real body stepping through the gate. Aside from that small worry, Illusion is one weave that has been described pretty consistently since TEOTW.

Now that the importance of the ferry has been diminished, we have a new reason to mistrust Moiraine:

"...Wisdom, you think I can help Master Fitch and the people at the inn? Well, you are right." Nynaeve started to say something, but Moiraine waved it away and went on. "I can go back by myself and give some help. Not too much, of course. That would draw attention to those I helped, attention they would not thank me for, especially with the Children of the Light in the town. And that would leave only Lan to protect the rest of you. He is very good, but it will take more than him if a Myrddraal and a fist of Trollocs find you. Of course, we could all return, though I doubt I can get all of us back into Baerlon unnoticed. And that would expose all of you to whomever set that fire, not to mention the Whitecloaks. Which alternative would you choose, Wisdom, if you were I?"

"I would do something," Nynaeve muttered unwillingly.

"And in all probability hand the Dark One his victory," Moiraine replied.

But the Two Rivers folk are a stubborn lot. Does Mat even remember what Moiraine told them in chapter thirteen? She told them the danger was far from over. It doesn't seem to matter much to any of them that she was right:

"I wonder what Dav did with that badger." Rand shook his head silently, and Mat hesitated. Finally he said, "I thought we were safe, you know, Rand. Not a sign of anything since we crossed the Taren, and there we were in a city, with walls around us. I thought we were safe. And then that dream. And a Fade. Are we ever going to be safe again?"

"Not until we get to Tar Valon," Rand said. "That's what she told us."

"Will we be safe then?" Perrin asked softly, and all three of them looked to the shadowy mound that was the Aes Sedai. Lan had melded into the darkness; he could have been anywhere.

Rand yawned suddenly. The others twitched nervously at the sound. "I think we'd better get some sleep," he said. "Staying awake won't answer anything."

Perrin spoke quietly. "She should have done something."

No one answered.

If it's not one thing, it's another...

Chapter 18 - The Caemlyn Road

Skipping back to chapter fourteen, I sort of glossed over the bath scene, but the bath attendant mentioned that there were Trollocs up in Saldaea, which of course inspired Mat's stupid desire to blab about them. Just before that, at the gates of Baerlon, Avin mentions the trouble up in Saldaea as well. Seemingly by chance, Lan mentions Maradon:

"Have you seen a farm this morning?" Lan asked. "Or even the smoke from a chimney? You haven't, because it's all wilderness from Baerlon to Whitebridge, and Whitebridge is where we must cross the Arinelle. That is the only bridge spanning the Arinelle south of Maradon, in Saldaea."

Thom snorted and blew out his mustaches. "What is to stop them from having someone, something, at Whitebridge already?"

From the west came the keening wail of a horn.

And that horn was the first sign of the chase that led them into Shadar Logoth, and led Rand, Mat, and Thom to meeting Bayle Domon, who had a rather intimate experience with those Trollocs, who were almost certainly after his cuendillar seal. I just find it interesting how even small details like that are foreshadowed in WoT - it's a simple matter of using the details you have already introduced to further the story, but RJ was very good at it. Even Thom's fate in Whitebridge is foreshadowed here.

One thing that has always bothered me a bit is that Aridhol (see map) seems just as far from Baerlon (see other map) as Baerlon is from Emond's Field, but it took them more than twice as long to reach Baerlon. But RJ was always just a little bit apathetic about maps, so whatever.

First hint of Lan's greatness (aside from being a Warder):

"The Light go with you, last Lord of the Seven Towers ..." Moiraine said almost too softly for Rand to hear. Drawing a deep breath, she turned Aldieb to the east. "We must go on," she said, and started off at a slow, steady trot. The others followed her in a tight file.

Rand twisted once in his saddle to look for Lan, but the Warder was already lost to sight among the low hills and leafless trees. Last Lord of the Seven Towers, she had called him. He wondered what that meant. He had not thought anyone besides himself had heard, but Thom was chewing the ends of his mustaches, and he had a speculative frown on his face. The gleeman seemed to know a great many things.

And another hint of Thom's worldliness, as well. Of course, once they get surrounded by Shadowspawn, Lan talks Moiraine into heading up toward Shadar Logoth, and they run into a full fist on the way there. This is a very important moment for the boys - their first real battle, not counting Winternight:

Even before the Myrddraal moved, Lan's sword was in his hand. "Stay with me!" he cried, and Mandarb plunged down the slope toward the Trollocs. "For the Seven Towers!" he shouted.

Rand gulped and booted the gray forward; the whole group of them streamed after the Warder. He was surprised to find Tam's sword in his fist. Caught up by Lan's cry, he found his own. "Manetheren! Manetheren!"

Perrin took it up. "Manetheren! Manetheren!"

But Mat shouted, "Carai an Caldazar! Carai an Ellisande! Al Ellisande!"

Brandon had some interesting comments on this:

Brandon
At the 35% mark we have Mat speaking the Old Tongue for the first time, books ahead of him getting memories stuck in his head.
Brandon
I've always found this a very curious event. Of the five Two Riversers, Mat's powers are the most subtly foreshadowed in the book.
Brandon
Unless you count the short exchange between Lan and Perrin about wolves in a much earlier chapter.
Krit Petty
I thought that Mat's Old Tongue was a small way of RJ letting you think maybe Mat was the important one, not Rand.
Brandon
Yes, I think you're right on that count. It was certainly meant to make us think.
Lee Davis
The speaking the Old Tongue is from his bloodline though, not his memories in that case, isn't it?
Brandon
Yes, but it's still foreshadowing. He's the one who does it, not the others.
sleepinghour
In TEotW, is Mat remembering the Old Tongue from his own past life or from his ancestors?
Terez
Good question. He seems to have confirmed Old Blood for the Old Tongue, but the Aemon memory (in TDR19)?
Felix
That's what my belief is, Aemon. Mat Cauthon is the reborn soul of Aemon. Aemon's Old Tongue.
Brandon
It isn't made clear. It could be either. The implication is his bloodline.
Brandon
The Aemon connection is certainly implied strongly.

More on that in the next chapter.

After another battle in which Moiraine takes care of everything, she makes a weave to throw the Trollocs off their trail so that they can make for Shadar Logoth. An important quote to keep in mind when re-reading this chapter, from chapter 47, 'More Tales of the Wheel':

"Fain would follow you three into the grave, because he must. When the Myrddraal failed at Emond's Field, it brought Fain with the Trollocs on our trail. The Fade would not let Fain ride with him; although he thought he should have the best horse in the Two Rivers and ride at the head of the band, the Myrddraal forced him to run with the Trollocs, and the Trollocs to carry him when his feet gave out. They talked so that he could understand, arguing about the best way to cook him when his usefulness was done. Fain claims he turned against the Dark One before they reached the Taren. But sometimes his greed for his promised rewards seeps into the open.
"When we had escaped across the Taren the Myrddraal took the Trollocs back to the closest Waygate, in the Mountains of Mist, and sent Fain across alone. He thought he was free then, but before he reached Baerlon another Fade found him, and that one was not so kind. It made him sleep doubled up on himself in a Trolloc kettle at night, to remind him of the price of failure. That one used him as far as Shadar Logoth. By then Fain was willing to give the Myrddraal his mother if it would free him, but the Dark One never willingly loosens a hold he has gained.

"What I did there, sending an illusion of our tracks and smell off toward the mountains, fooled the Myrddraal, but not Fain. The Halfmen did not believe him; afterward, they dragged him behind them on a leash. Only when we seemed to keep always just ahead, no matter how hard they pressed, did some begin to credit him. Those were the four who returned to Shadar Logoth. Fain claims it was Ba'alzamon himself who drove the Myrddraal. "

Even then, Moiraine was unaware that Fain had run afoul of Mordeth; she did not realize that until her research at Tifan's Well jogged the facts in her head.

But back in Shadar Logoth, our Heroes (including Moiraine) are blissfully unaware of any of this - that is, until the Trollocs start knocking.

Chapter 19 - Shadow's Waiting

This chapter is mostly about Shadar Logoth, Fain, and Mordeth. You'll know when I get there. But speaking of Aemon:

Mat scowled. "I was thinking about ... about what happened back there. About those words I ..." Everybody turned to look at him then, not just Rand, and he shifted uneasily. "Well, you heard what Moiraine said. It's as if some dead man was speaking with my mouth. I don't like it." His scowl grew deeper when Perrin chuckled.

"Aemon's warcry, she said – right? Maybe you're Aemon come back again. The way you go on about how dull Emond's Field is, I'd think you would like that – being a king and hero reborn."

"Don't say that!" Thom drew a deep breath; everybody stared at him now. "That is dangerous talk, stupid talk. The dead can be reborn, or take a living body, and it is not something to speak of lightly." He took another breath to calm himself before going on. "The old blood, she said. The blood, not a dead man. I've heard that it can happen, sometimes. Heard, though I never really thought ... It was your roots, boy. A line running from you to your father to your grandfather, right on back to Manetheren, and maybe beyond. Well, now you know your family is old. You ought to let it go at that and be glad. Most people don't know much more than that they had a father."

Some of us can't even be sure of that, Rand thought bitterly. Maybe the Wisdom was right. Light, I hope she was.

What is interesting here is that Thom speaks of being reborn as if it is something bad - as if it is a dead person taking over your body. Well, for one, everybody is somebody reborn, whether there's any sign of it or not. For another, Thom has probably heard vague stories about cases like Rand's, where people remember past life memories and then jump to the (erroneous) conclusion that another person is trying to take over. From the grapevine perspective of Thom the Bard, it probably does sound pretty scary. Rand thought it was scary. But in reality, it's quite normal to be somebody else reborn. RJ noted that most people in the WoT world are very uncomfortable with the concept:

RJ's blog 4 October 2005 "ONE MORE TIME"

Everybody fears death because the being that is reborn, while possessing the same soul, will not be the same person.  The fear is simple.  I will cease to exist.  Someone else will exist, bearing my soul.  But I will cease.  I have met many believers in reincarnation, and most of them seem to fear death just as much as anyone else.

And of course, we have Rand and Birgitte and the like to demonstrate that this is not exactly true, but in many ways it might as well be. Thom's fear might simply be because of the stories that he has heard, but he seems to be conflating those stories with the general idea of reincarnation - as in, he might assume that, if you do not remember past lives, then you are not a dead person reborn (which we know is untrue). Lews Therin is an example of the dead being reborn, and you might say that Mordeth is an example of the dead taking a living body. And on that note, the timing is rather immaculate.

Brandon questions his teenagerish perspective:

Brandon
Amusingly, as a young man, I was annoyed at Nynaeve & Moiraine. But I didn't bat an eye when the boys ran off alone in Shadar Logoth.

I was always just a little underwhelmed by Rand and Perrin in particular in this instance. They're both 'solid lads', as Tam al'Thor says (and he didn't say the same about Mat), but they are quick to fall in with Mat's enthusiasm, and each of them has a ridiculously illogical argument to add to the justification of it:

"We are all in this together, not just one of us," Rand told Mat.

Mat gave himself a shake, and laughed, a short bark. "Right. Well, speaking of being in things together, now that we're done with the horses, why don't we go see a little more of this city. A real city, and no crowds to jostle your elbow and poke you in the ribs. Nobody looking down their long noses at us. There's still an hour, maybe two, of daylight left."

"Aren't you forgetting the Trollocs?" Perrin said.

Mat shook his head scornfully. "Lan said they wouldn't come in here, remember? You need to listen to what people say."

"I remember," Perrin said. "And I do listen. This city – Aridhol? – was an ally of Manetheren. See? I listen."

"Aridhol must have been the greatest city in the Trolloc Wars," Rand aid, "for the Trollocs to still be afraid of it. They weren't afraid to come into the Two Rivers, and Moiraine said Manetheren was – how did she put it? – a thorn to the Dark One's foot."

Perrin raised his hands. "Don't mention the Shepherd of the Night. Please?"

"What do you say?" Mat laughed. "Let's go."

"We should ask Moiraine," Perrin said, and Mat threw up his hands.

"Ask Moiraine? You think she'll let us out of her sight? And what about Nynaeve? Blood and ashes, Perrin, why not ask Mistress Luhhan while you're about it?"

Perrin nodded reluctant agreement, and Mat turned to Rand with a grin. "What about you? A real city? With palaces!" He gave a sly laugh. "And no Whitecloaks to stare at us."

Rand gave him a dirty look, but he hesitated only a minute. Those palaces were like a gleeman's tale. "All right."

In a way, you might say this is the last time that the three of them have a chance to pretend that they are still children (not that they would have seen it that way, of course), and that everything is going to be alright, and soon they can go back to not worrying about being chased by Trollocs and maybe even back home. What better place could there be, for the sun to set on their innocence? What better place, to teach them how wrong they were?

Aside from Mat picking up the dagger - not a negligible thing, to be sure - their little jaunt into the city turned out to be a good thing, in a way. If Lan hadn't gone out looking for them, he might not have discovered that there were Trollocs inside the city in time to allow them to escape. Most amusing is the way they told the story to Moiraine:

Everyone began in a different place. Mat started with finding the treasure, sounding almost as if he had done it alone, while Perrin began explaining why they had gone off in the first place without telling anyone. Rand jumped right to what he thought was important, meeting the stranger among the columns. But they were all so excited that nobody told anything in the order it happened; whenever one of them thought of something, he blurted it out with no regard for what came before or after, or for who was saying what. The watchers. They all babbled about the watchers.

Rand is of course the sensible one, and Perrin the overly-sensible one. And Mat...

"Did he touch you?" she asked them all. "Did he give you anything, or did you do anything for him? I must know."

"No," Rand said. "None of us. None of those things."

Perrin nodded agreement, and added, "All he did was try to kill us. Isn't that enough? He swelled up until he filled half the room, shouted that we were all dead men, then vanished." He moved his hand to demonstrate. "Like smoke." Egwene gave a squeak.

Mat twisted away petulantly. "Safe, you said. All that talk about Trollocs not coming here. What were we supposed to think?"

"Apparently you did not think at all," she said, coolly composed once more. "Anyone who thinks would be wary of a place that Trollocs are afraid to enter."

"Mat's doing," Nynaeve said, certainty in her voice. "He's always talking some mischief or other, and the others lose the little wits they were born with when they're around him."

At least he did not lie about it. He just did not tell the whole truth. And of course, Nynaeve saw straight to the heart of the situation.


In the next chapter, 'Dust on the Wind', they are separated. Mat begins to fall prey to the influence of the dagger, and Thom meets the Fade at Whitebridge. Rand and Mat begin their perilous journey down the road to Caemlyn. The next time Rand sees Perrin, his eyes are golden, hiding secrets, and not long after, Rand realizes he has his own secrets, worse than anything Perrin could possibly be hiding. The estrangement only seems to grow until they are separated again in TSR, not to be reunited (all three) until AMOL. 

Mordeth

The encounter with Mordeth in Shadar Logoth remains to be one of the most mysterious scenes of the series, in some ways. There is a lot to say about it. First, skipping to later in the chapter, Moiraine's story of Mordeth:

"Shadar Logoth?" Egwene said uncertainly. "I thought you said this city was called Aridhol."

"Once it was called Aridhol," Moiraine replied, "and was one of the Ten Nations, the lands that made the Second Covenant, the lands that stood against the Dark One from the first days after the Breaking of the World. In the days when Thorin al Toren al Ban was King of Manetheren, the King of Aridhol was Balwen Mayel, Balwen Ironhand. In a twilight of despair during the Trolloc Wars, when it seemed the Father of Lies must surely conquer, the man called Mordeth came to Balwen's court."....

...."Before Mordeth had been long in the city he had Balwen's ear, and soon he was second only to the King. Mordeth whispered poison in Balwen's ear, and Aridhol began to change. Aridhol drew in on itself, hardened. It was said that some would rather see Trollocs come than the men of Aridhol. The victory of the Light is all. That was the battlecry Mordeth gave them, and the men of Aridhol shouted it while their deeds abandoned the Light.

"The story is too long to tell in full, and too grim, and only fragments are known, even in Tar Valon. How Thorin's son, Caar, came to win Aridhol back to the Second Covenant, and Balwen sat his throne, a withered shell with the light of madness in his eyes, laughing while Mordeth smiled at his side and ordered the deaths of Caar and the embassy as Friends of the Dark. How Prince Caar came to be called Caar One-Hand. How he escaped the dungeons of Aridhol and fled alone to the Borderlands with Mordeth's unnatural assassins at his heels. How there he met Rhea, who did not know who he was, and married her, and set the skein in the Pattern that led to his death at her hands, and hers by her own hand before his tomb, and the fall of Aleth-loriel. How the armies of Manetheren came to avenge Caar and found the gates of Aridhol torn down, no living thing inside the walls, but something worse than death. No enemy had come to Aridhol but Aridhol. Suspicion and hate had given birth to something that fed on that which created it, something locked in the bedrock on which the city stood. Mashadar waits still, hungering. Men spoke of Aridhol no more. They named it Shadar Logoth, the Place Where the Shadow Waits, or more simply, Shadow's Waiting.

"Mordeth alone was not consumed by Mashadar, but he was snared by it, and he, too, has waited within these walls through the long centuries. Others have seen him. Some he has influenced through gifts that twist the mind and taint the spirit, the taint waxing and waning until it rules ... or kills. If ever he convinces someone to accompany him to the walls, to the boundary of Mashadar's power, he will be able to consume the soul of that person. Mordeth will leave, wearing the body of the one he worse than killed, to wreak his evil on the world again."

The interesting part is that Mordeth was theoretically 'snared' but not 'consumed'. There are a few examples in the series of people having been either snared or consumed by Mashadar, aside from Fain. First, we have Liah, who disappeared in LOC21. Rand saw her again in ACOS41 when he went after Sammael:

Abruptly a figure in rags leaped from a window above the Trollocs, falling on them with spear already stabbing. An Aiel, a woman, shoufa wrapped around her head but veil hanging. The eagle-beaked Trolloc shrieked as her spearpoint stabbed deep into its side, stabbed again. As its companion fell, kicking, boar-snout spun with snarl, thrusting viciously, but she ducked low under the black hooked point and stabbed up into the creature's stomach, and it went down in a thrashing heap with the other.

Rand was on his feet and running before he thought. "Liah!" he shouted. He had thought her dead, abandoned here by him, dead for him. Liah, of the Cosaida Chareen; that name blazed on the list in his head.

She whirled to confront him, spear ready in one hand, round bull-hide buckler in the other. The face he remembered as pretty despite scars on both cheeks was contorted with rage. "Mine!" she hissed threateningly through her teeth. "Mine! No one may come here! No one!"

He stopped in his tracks. That spear waited, eager to seek his ribs too. "Liah, you know me," he said softly. "You know me. I’ll take you back to the Maidens, back to your spear-sisters." He held out his hand.

Her rage melted into a twisted frown. She tilted her head to one side. "Rand al’Thor?" she said slowly. Her eyes widened, falling to the dead Trollocs, and a look of horror spread across her face. "Rand al’Thor," she whispered, fumbling the black veil into place across her face with the hand that held her spear. "The Car’a’carn!" she wailed. And fled.

He hobbled after her, scrambling over piles of rubble spread across the street, falling, ripping his coat, falling again and nearly ripping it off, rolling and picking himself up on the run. The weakness of his body was distant, and the pain of it, but even floating deep in the Void, he could only push that body so hard. Liah vanished into the night.

It seems as though Liah was 'snared' like Mordeth, but not 'consumed' by Mashadar. If she was not snared, then why did she disappear in the first place? Someone asked RJ about her:

AOL Chat #1 - 27 June 1996

DaveB62 asks: How do you explain Liah being in Shadar Logoth for so long? 
RJ: She became absorbed into the city. She was left there and she is, after all, an Aiel, one of the people better at surviving under harsh circumstances than anyone else in the world. And also her corruption by Shadar Logoth gave her some protection.

Rand saw her again later in ACOS41:

A scream tore the darkness, a woman shrieking in agony beyond knowing. Rand saw Sammael turn to stare toward the great mound of rubble even as his own eyes flashed that way. Atop the mound a shape stood outlined against the night sky in coat and breeches, a single thin tendril of Mashadar touching her leg. Arms outstretched, she thrashed about, unable to move from the spot, and her wordless wail seemed to call Rand’s name.

"Liah," he whispered. Unconsciously he reached out, as though he could stretch his arm across the intervening distance and pull her away. Nothing could save what Mashadar touched, though, no more than anything could have saved him had Fain’s dagger plunged into his heart. "Liah," he whispered. And balefire leaped from his hand.

Presumably, that was the first time Mashadar touched her. It's interesting because it means that the fog - the physical manifestation of Mashadar - is not the only danger in the city. RJ said Liah was 'absorbed' by the city, and that her Aiel training equipped her to survive the harsh conditions. She was protected from Mashadar until Rand returned. It may be that Rand's appearance - particularly the fact that Liah recognized him - somehow weakened the hold that the city had on her mind.

So perhaps what Mordeth experienced was different from what Liah experienced. We also know that Sammael's soul was corrupted by Mashadar:

The Gathering Storm Book Tour, Scottsdale Public Library, Phoenix Arizona 16 November 2009 - kcf reporting

Brandon...said that the Dark One would have liked very much to transmigrate Sammael but didn’t. Apparently, since he died by Mashadar, Sammael was either unable to be transmigrated or it would have been a very bad idea. Basically, Mashadar tainted Sammael’s thread somehow.

Brandon later clarified that Sammael's soul was not permanently damaged, but that it was only corrupted to the point that the Dark One could not transmigrate him.

All of these things give us a little bit of insight on what, exactly, Mordeth is. But Brandon has said some interesting things on Mordeth as well:

Driving Mr. Sanderson (from Half Moon Bay to San Jose), 21 November 2009 - Matt Hatch reporting

Matt: Ok. You mentioned that Mordeth was a man that had "power". You are reported as saying that his power was that "which he got by seeking out all of the evil things that weren’t related to the Shadow"…
Brandon: He was seeking things that were related to the Shadow. I think that that might be a misquote. He was looking into the power of the Shadow in order to defeat it, was his goal. He was looking into everything. He was looking into things that were not necessarily related to the Dark One as well. He was looking for everything that he could get.
Matt: Previous to him arriving to Aridhol?
Brandon: Yeah.
Matt: Before he went to the king and became the counselor, Mordeth was this guy that went around searching for power?
Brandon: Yeah, he wanted to defeat the Dark One and he felt that he could find other ways to do it. He originally was good. He did not…he wasn’t this terrible person to begin with, but he was looking to defeat the Dark One, to find a way to defeat the Shadow. And he looked into a lot of things he shouldn’t have looked into. There are evils that are not necessarily directly related to the Dark One, though everything evil kind of has…just as there are goods that are not related necessarily to the One Power…we are talking much as Perrin runs with wolves. This is a thing older than…there are other evil things that are old in a similar way.
Matt: Is the assumption then that he found one of these?
Brandon: He did.
Matt: He found one or multiple?
Brandon: He found many things of darkness. There is one in specific that is driving him, but he knew too much. He found things he should not have gotten into and that is what turned him into…when he got there he was already corrupt. He still thought he was doing a good work. He still thought, 'We are going to raise this kingdom up and it is going to become this bastion against the Shadow', but he was already by then corrupted.
Matt: Is this same corrupting influence what corrupts everyone through the dagger itself?
Brandon: Yeah. Through him, yes. And even through his presence.
Matt: I heard you answer a question last night, which sounded interesting. Someone asked about Padan Fain and Elaida...
Brandon: A lot of people don’t remember that they met.
Matt: So, his influence...how long, for example…wasn’t Egwene exposed to Padan Fain? Are there still effects that Egwene has on people because of him?
Brandon: Remember the idea that people have, generally, a choice. There are ways to turn people to the Shadow against their will, but when that happens the person is no longer the [same] person. What is happening with Padan Fain is, natural tendencies can be exacerbated or they can be fought off...
Matt: ...so Elaida’s paranoia fed that? With someone like Egwene, she might have fought it off, so it’s not going to be…
Brandon: ...right. exactly, or someone like Rand who continues to fight it off. He has become very paranoid. And the wound in his side, certainly someone could make the connection that that might have an influence. I won’t say for certain but…
Matt: ...so, the suggestion is, not only does he have the taint, which is negatively influencing him, or influencing him in such ways that might bring on paranoia; there is this accentuation of it because of Fain…
Brandon: ...this corruption…I mean that wound and the dagger…
Matt: ...that is another source…
Brandon: Mat managed to fight it off pretty much completely; well, not completely, but we don’t see Mat running around paranoid anymore. Elaida gave it something to feed upon, and it was very, very small and subtle with Elaida, but certainly that was an influence.
Matt: Ok. Is Mordeth’s power, this evil power, comparable to the One Power and True Power? Is it a power that can be woven?
Brandon: No, it’s more something along the lines of Perrin’s wolf power, something more natural.  You couldn’t weave Mordeth.
Matt: Ok, so it’s more of a natural…
Brandon: ...it’s more of a natural [thing], though it is unnatural. It’s an unnatural natural thing.
Matt: ...because Jordan was really particular about…he tried to have a logic-based system as it pertained to the One Power. Is this power more supernatural in this sense than it is based on physics?
Brandon: Let’s say more instinctual, alright?

Most interesting is that Mordeth sought out things - comparable to the Wolfbrother talent - that were related to the Shadow, in order to fight the Shadow, and that there is one in particular that is driving him. What resulted was an evil that is diametrically opposed to the power of the Shadow, but it is probably important to remember that it was related to the Shadow in the first place. As Aginor says, "An old friend, an old enemy." Further complicating the issue is the fact that Fain was the Dark One's hound:

TOR Questions of the Week, August 2004-January 2005

Week 10 Question: Now that Shadar Logoth is gone, (cool way to get rid of it by the way), has the evil power in Padan Fain/Mordeth/the Ruby Dagger decreased any? Has it driven him even more insane? Or since the next book is called the Knife of Dreams, will all these questions be answered in it?

Robert Jordan Answers: The evil power in Padan Fain has neither decreased nor increased, nor has that in the dagger. The corruption in him was partly caused by the taint on Shadar Logoth, but it didn't constitute a real connection to the city. Remember that it was because he was Padan Fain, the Hound of the Shadow, that he was able to leave Shadar Logoth in his new condition after he merged with/absorbed Mordeth. (By the way, any other artifacts that might be lying around from Shadar Logoth would have the same long-term corrupting effect as the dagger. Fortunately, or unfortunately, any such thing would need to be metal or stone. The wood and fabric had decayed. It wouldn't have been pleasant to get a splinter from, say, a chair from Shadar Logoth.)

The destruction of Shadar Logoth has not driven Fain any more insane. I'm not certain he'd be able to function at all if he were any madder than he already is. But being insane doesn't make him any less dangerous, only less predictable. He no longer responds to situations or events in any sort of sane, logical manner. His abiding concerns are hatred of Rand al'Thor (and to a lesser degree Mat and Perrin) because he blames them for what the Dark One did to him in order to turn him into the Shadow's Hound, and hatred for the Dark One because of what the Dark One did to him. He goes after Rand because Rand is the easiest target in his mind, but if he can take a swipe at the Dark One or the Dark One's minions in some way that he felt would cause real harm, he'd leap at it.

As far as that connection to the city goes...most of us assumed that RJ's comment meant that Mashadar had been destroyed. Of course, it turned out in TOM that we were wrong. Mashadar now follows Fain around, his pet attack dog.

I have always assumed that Mordeth's body was an illusion, but it occurred to me to ask Brandon about it:

Terez on Twitter - 7 January 2011

In ch. 19, is Mordeth's body an illusion? Does this foreshadow Fain's powers in WH and TOM?

Brandon

Mordeth's body is more than an illusion. But you could call it less than real.

Not very helpful, really. There is certainly the sense that Mordeth did not leave anything behind when he rode out of the city on Fain's back, never to return. In the prologue of TFOH, Fain (Mordeth) thinks of all the years he was trapped in Shadar Logoth:

The Tower held things worth a little patience in its strong rooms. The Horn of Valere was there, the fabled Horn made to call dead heroes back from the grave for the Last Battle. Even most of the Aes Sedai were ignorant of that, but he knew how to sniff out things. The dagger was there. He felt its pull where he stood. He could have pointed to it. It was his, a part of him, stolen and mired away here by these Aes Sedai. Having the dagger would make up for so much lost; he was not sure how, but he was sure it would. For Aridhol lost. Too dangerous to return to Aridhol, perchance to be trapped there again. He shivered. So long trapped. Not again.

Of course, no one called it Aridhol any longer, but Shadar Logoth. Where the Shadow Waits. An apt name. So much had changed. Even himself. Padan Fain. Mordeth. Ordeith. Sometimes he was uncertain which name was really his, who he really was. One thing was sure. He was not what anyone thought. Those who believed they knew him were badly mistaken. He was transfigured, now. A force unto himself, and beyond any other power. They would all learn, eventually.

It is actually rather confusing, the way the power of Shadar Logoth - whatever it is - in some ways works against Mordeth, and in some ways works with him. He confirms later (in TFOH19) that the power of the dagger is the same power that bound him in Shadar Logoth:

He sighed as soon as he touched it, stretched languorously. He was whole again, one with what had bound him so long ago, one with what in a very real way had given him life.

So, enough about the nature of Mordeth. Back to what happens, hopefully with a greatly-expanded perspective as compared to the first time we read it (or the next few, for that matter). What are the watching eyes in Shadar Logoth? Are they the souls of those who were killed by Mashadar? RJ said Sammael could be reborn - did they wait there until they were reborn, or can Sammael only be reborn because Shadar Logoth was destroyed? RJ said that just after WH was released. Check it out:

Rand untangled himself and picked Tam's sword up from the pavement, looking around uneasily. Less than half of the sun still showed above the rooftops. Shadows reached out like dark hands, made blacker by the remaining light, nearly filling the street. He shivered. The shadows looked like Mordeth, reaching....

.....Rand knew it was not his imagination this time. The back of his neck prickled. Something was watching them from the darkness in the columns. He spun around, staring at the buildings across the way. He could feel eyes on him from there, too. His grip tightened on his sword hilt, though he wondered what good it would be. Watching eyes seemed to be everywhere. The others looked around warily; he knew they could feel it, too.....

.....The watchers followed them. Or else there were lots of watchers, lots of eyes staring out of almost every building. Rand could not see anything move, hard as he tried, but he could feel the eyes, eager, hungry. He did not know which would be worse. Thousands of eyes, or just a few, following them.

In the stretches where the sun still reached them, they slowed, just a little, squinting nervously into the darkness that always seemed to lay ahead. None of them was eager to enter the shadows; no one was really sure something might not be waiting. The watchers' anticipation was a palpable thing whenever shadows stretched across the street, barring their way. They ran through those dark places shouting. Rand thought he could hear dry, rustling laughter...

At last, with twilight falling, they came in sight of the white stone building they had left what seemed like days ago. Suddenly the watching eyes departed. Between one step and the next, they vanished in a blink. Without a word Rand broke into a trot, followed by his friends, then a full run that only ended when they hared through the doorway and collapsed, panting.

What is up with that? What happened to the bodies of all the Shadowspawn who were killed there? Moiraine says the evidence disappeared after a time:

"Late in the Trolloc Wars, an army camped within these ruins – Trollocs, Darkfriends, Myrddraal, Dreadlords, thousands in all. When they did not come out, scouts were sent inside the walls. The scouts found weapons, bits of armor, and blood splattered everywhere. And messages scratched on walls in the Trolloc tongue, calling on the Dark One to aid them in their last hour. Men who came later found no trace of the blood or the messages. They had been scoured away. Halfmen and Trollocs remember still. That is what keeps them outside this place."

Is Mashadar really mindless? Is it a part of Fain now because of Mordeth, or because of the dagger? More likely both. Before TOM I didn't think there was enough evidence to suggest that Fain was able to impersonate Sammael because of a connection to Mashadar, but now I wonder. He was a strong candidate for the attack on Algarin's manor even without that possibility.

As I noted at the end of the last chapter, Moiraine and Lan are completely unaware of Padan Fain, or anything strange going on with the Shadowspawn, until they show up in Shadar Logoth:

"There are Trollocs inside the walls," Lan said. "They will be here in little more than an hour. And the Dha'vol are the worst of them." He began waking the others.

Moiraine smoothly began folding her blankets. "How many? Do they know we are here?" She sounded as if there were no urgency at all.

"I don't think they do," Lan replied. "There are well over a hundred, frightened enough to kill anything that moves, including one another. The Halfmen are having to drive them – four just to handle one fist – and even the Myrddraal seem to want nothing more than to pass through the city and out as quickly as possible. They are not going out of their way to search, and they're so slipshod that if they were not heading nearly straight for us I would say we had nothing to worry about." He hesitated.

"There is something else?"

"Only this," Lan said slowly. "The Myrddraal forced the Trollocs into the city. What forced the Myrddraal?"

Only the boys knew that Ba'alzamon - Ishamael - was free to influence the world. But they did not trust Moiraine enough to tell her.

Odds and ends:

1. An amusing variation on the 'every character is more beautiful than the ones before' etc. memes: The Stag and Lion 'covered more than twice as much ground as the Winespring Inn, and was four stories high besides'. Now we have a random building in Shadar Logoth:

And I thought Baerlon was a city! Burn me, but Thom must have been laughing up his sleeve. Moiraine and Lan, too.

He was so caught up in staring that he was taken by surprise when Lan suddenly stopped in front of a white stone building that had once been twice as big as the Stag and Lion in Baerlon. There was nothing to say what it had been when the city lived and was great, perhaps even an inn.

Each city is greater than the next. Until Caemlyn, at least. You might even say it applied to Lews Therin's screams in the prologue. Three of them, each one dwarfing the one before it.

2. This exchange is interesting because of the dynamic between Lan and Nynaeve:

"I may not like her, it is true," Nynaeve was saying to the Warder as Rand, leading Bela and Cloud, came in behind Thom, "but I help anyone who needs my help, whether I like them or not."

"I made no accusation, Wisdom. I only said, have a care with your herbs."

She gave him a look from the corner of her eye. "The fact is, she needs my herbs, and so do you." Her voice was acerbic to start, and grew more tart as she spoke. "The fact is, she can only do so much, even with her One Power, and she has done about as much as she can without collapsing. The fact is, your sword cannot help her now, Lord of the Seven Towers, but my herbs can."

Moiraine laid a hand on Lan's arm. "Be at ease, Lan. She means no harm. She simply does not know." The Warder snorted derisively.

Moiraine said straight out that Nynaeve meant no harm, so she must have believed it. But Lan did not. Lan was probably closer to the truth, though Nynaeve would probably not have gone so far as to poison Moiraine. She's not above putting in a little something to make it taste more awful than is strictly necessary.

3. When they first encounter Mordeth, he acts like he's never heard of Caemlyn, and he does the same later:

"We're on our way to Caemlyn," Rand said. "We stopped to take shelter for the night."

"Caemlyn," Mordeth said slowly, rolling the name around his tongue, then shook his head. "Shelter for the night, you say? Perhaps you will join me."......

.......Rage twisted Mordeth's face, and fear, too. His lips pulled back from his teeth. "Tar Valon!" He shook clenched fists at them. "Tar Valon! You said you were going to this ... this ... Caemlyn! You lied to me!"

Caemlyn was known as Hai Caemlyn during the Trolloc Wars (and before), and we know it wasn't destroyed (unlike Mafal Dadaranell) because the Ogier-built inner city remains. It could be, however, that the name is simply pronounced so differently that Mordeth did not identify with it:

Rand thought the man's accent sounded odd, even after Baerlon; some words he pronounced strangely, so Rand could barely understand them.

3. Re: Moiraine's story of Mordeth. It leaves one to wonder how Tar Valon could possibly know what Mordeth would do if he managed to convince someone to take him outside the city. It's not like he was going to be telling people about it. I suppose that some Aes Sedai or another put forward a theory on it that happened to connect all the dots, and that it became accepted as truth over time.

4. Caar was Aemon's grandfather, and Rhea is a parallel to the mother of Zeus. There is another Rhea parallel in Rand's Aiel ancestry, and there is a hint that the Andoran royal line is descended from her. There is even a small hint that Perrin might be the rebirth of Ishara's grandfather, the last king of Aldeshar (incidentally, Mat has 'Finn memories of being his general against Hawkwing - Aldeshar was the last nation to fall to the Empire), in which case it may be that all three boys have a Rhea in their ancestry, in this life or another (though Rhea was the sister of Rand's direct Aiel ancestor, he would theoretically be directly descended from her through Tigraine). For more details on the parallels in this story, search any of the names or places she mentioned at 13th Depository (linked in sidebar). I find the search function to be the most useful tool for utilizing 13th Depository but in cases where it doesn't work, the index usually does. This is all very tenuous, but I find it interesting.

5. There are a few theories floating around about the possibility that the Dark One has a string of sorts tied to Mat. One older example is the Mat Pawn theory, but some might say the idea became more popular after RJ said this:

DragonCon 4 September 2005 - Emma reporting
Question: In The Dragon Reborn, Lanfear visits Mat as he is recuperating from his One Power surgery over the dagger. At one point she stretches out her hand towards him and he feels a tingle going over him, somebody interrupts them, and she turns her head and sobs, at about the same time a member of Black Ajah stole [ter'angreal] out of the Tower cache, one of which was...known to have some effect on chance. So it was about this time that Mat's really really really weird luck and the dice rolling in his head began. Is this a connection or coincidence?
Jordan: That is a coincidence. When they say that Mat has the Dark One's own luck, he can get as mad as he wants to, but in a way it is true. It wasn't a gift from Lanfear, though.Question Part 2: In that case, what was Lanfear doing?
Jordan: She was checking his health. She doesn't care very much, except that he is important to Rand, to Lews Therin, him and Perrin both, so she is interested in, the one she wants mainly is Lews Therin, or wanted anyway, and uh, so she is interested in these other two ta'veren, who seemed to be tied in with him, because they might be important to him.

Tim Kington suggests that RJ's comment refers to the dagger:

Tim Kington on Twitter - 15 January 2011
I thought it was because Mat picked up the dagger. Earlier he says "Take what you want. Except... Except..."

I always figured that Mordeth was simply second-guessing his insistence that the boys go and not come back:

"You are not alone?" Mordeth said. He had let them rush past him into the treasure room, but now he followed. "Who else is with you?"

Mat, wrist deep in the riches before him, answered absently. "Moiraine and Lan. And then there's Nynaeve, and Egwene, and Thom. He's a gleeman. We're going to Tar Valon."

Rand caught his breath. Then the silence from Mordeth made him look at the man.

Rage twisted Mordeth's face, and fear, too. His lips pulled back from his teeth. "Tar Valon!" He shook clenched fists at them. "Tar Valon! You said you were going to this ... this ... Caemlyn! You lied to me!"

"If you still want," Perrin said to Mordeth, "we'll come back tomorrow and help you." Carefully he set the axe back on the heap of gem-encrusted chalices and jewelry. "If you want."

"No. That is ..." Panting, Mordeth shook his head as if he could not decide. "Take what you want. Except... Except..."

Suddenly Rand realized what had been nagging at him about the man. The scattered torches in the hallway had given each of them a ring of shadows, just as the torches in the treasure room did. Only ... He was so shocked he said it out loud. "You don't have a shadow."

Perhaps Mordeth was going to tell them not to take the dagger, although it would seem strange for Mordeth to have left the dagger in the treasure pile if it were important to him in some way - RJ says it was not any more tainted than anything else in the city. I will probably cover the issue of Mat's luck in more detail when it appears in TDR - there is certainly a great deal more detail to consider on the subject. The possibility of the Dark One having a string tied to him will come up a few times before then.

Chapter 20 - Dust on the Wind

I find these lyrics to be relevant to our interests (in, on, same difference):

I close my eyes, only for a moment, and the moment's gone
All my dreams pass before my eyes, a curiosity
Dust in the wind--all they are is dust in the wind
Same old song, just a drop of water in an endless sea
All we do crumbles to the ground, though we refuse to see

Dust in the wind--All we are is dust in the wind

Don't hang on, nothing lasts forever but the earth and sky
It slips away, all your money won't another minute buy

Dust in the wind--All we are is dust in the wind

It always gets stuck in my head when I read this chapter, so I figured I'd share (though I imagine I was too late for most of you). The actual quote comes from Thom at the end of the chapter - 'That's how gleemen travel, like dust on the wind.' - but the lyrics are simple and vague enough that they happen to apply pretty well. And of course, the wind theme is pretty central to the story, and all dreams must end.

As our young heroes set out to depart Shadar Logoth, they are immediately separated from the elders (including Nynaeve) by Mashadar:

When Rand looked up from the thick trunk of opaque mist, the Warder and the Aes Sedai were gone. He licked his lips and met his companions' eyes. They were as nervous as he was. And something worse: they all seemed to be waiting for someone else to move first. Night and ruins surrounded them. The Fades were out there, somewhere, and the Trollocs, maybe around the next corner. The tentacles of fog drifted nearer, halfway to them now, and no longer wavering. They had chosen their intended prey. Suddenly he missed Moiraine very much.

Of course, now that she is gone, he appreciates her. Imagine that. And then...

Two Trollocs stepped into the street before them, not ten spans away.

For an instant the humans and the Trollocs just stared at one another, each more surprised than the other. Another pair of Trollocs appeared, and another, and another, colliding with the ones in front, folding into a shocked mass at the sight of the humans. Only for an instant did they remain frozen, though. Guttural howls echoed from the buildings, and the Trollocs bounded forward. The humans scattered like quail.

Rand's gray reached full gallop in three strides. "This way!" he shouted, but he heard the same cry from five throats. A hasty glance over his shoulder showed him his companions disappearing in as many directions, Trollocs pursuing them all.

Brandon notes that this is the point at which we get our first non-Rand POV (from Perrin) - since the prologue, anyway (Rand was in it, but the POV was omniscient):

Brandon
First non-Rand viewpoint is Perrin, at about the 38% mark. RJ's juggling of viewpoints is something I didn't see until I was older.

Brandon
Many a new fantasy writer, fresh off a WoT book, plans and plots a huge epic with 20 viewpoints. That can be overwhelming to start.
Brandon
Both WoT and GRRM ease into it more than you realize. In most cases, it's better to build to complexity.

In some ways, you might say that the chapter title represents the breaking up of the Holy Trinity, or the Three Amigos. They have not been truly separated since Emond's Field, but now that they are, it is important that the story take up Perrin's POV.

Interesting, how Perrin's introduction in chapter three is so much like the introduction to his thoughts:

"I had been thinking you were going to stay out on the farm through the whole Festival," Perrin Aybara shouted at Rand over the clamor. Half a head shorter than Rand, the curly-haired blacksmith's apprentice was so stocky as to seem a man and a half wide, with arms and shoulders thick enough to rival those of Master Luhhan himself. He could easily have pushed through the throng, but that was not his way. He picked his path carefully, offering apologies to people who had only half a mind to notice anything but the peddler. He made the apologies anyway, and tried not to jostle anyone as he worked through the crowd to Rand and Mat.

Compare:

He knew that Mat, and almost everyone else in Emond's Field, considered him slow of thought. It was partly because he was big and usually moved carefully – he had always been afraid he might accidentally break something or hurt somebody, since he was so much bigger than the boys he grew up with – but he really did prefer to think things all the way through if he could. Quick thinking, careless thinking, had put Mat into hot water one time after another, and Mat's quick thinking usually managed to get Rand, or him, or both, in the cookpot alongside Mat, too.

His throat tightened. Light, don't think about being in a cookpot. He tried to order his thoughts again. Careful thought was the way.

So, Perrin hooks up with Egwene, and Rand runs into Mat and Thom, the latter of whom rushes them to the river.  They all make it across, of course, but especially of note is that Perrin considered the Dilemma of the Axe in his very first POV:

Even without the cloak, his coat and boots each seemed to weigh as much as he did. And the axe dragged at his waist, threatening to roll him over if it did not pull him under. He thought about letting the river have that, too; he thought about it more than once. It would be easy, much easier than struggling out of his boots, for instance. But every time he thought of it, he thought of crawling out on the far bank to find Trollocs waiting. The axe would not do him much good against half a dozen Trollocs – or even against one, maybe – but it was better than his bare hands.

Brandon
I'd forgotten that Perrin nearly decides to drop his axe in the water as he swims. But he keeps it, almost against logic.

Back to Rand's POV...Thom kicks some ass:

Suddenly Thom's gelding galloped out of the night, hard behind the Trollocs. The Trollocs had only time enough to look back in surprise before the gleeman's hands whipped back and then forward. Moonlight flashed off steel. One Trolloc tumbled forward, rolling over and over before landing in a heap, while a second dropped to its knees with a scream, clawing at its back with both hands. The third snarled, baring a muzzleful of sharp teeth, but as its companions toppled it whirled away into the darkness. Thom's hand made the whip-like motion again, and the Trolloc shrieked, but the shrieks faded into the distance as it ran.

Rand and Mat pulled up and stared at the gleeman.

"My best knives," Thom muttered, but he made no effort to get down and retrieve them.

This scene creates a small problem with one of the many non-explanations for the blue flashes at Whitebridge (which I will address more specifically when we get there):

USAToday Chat - 5 January 2004
NY, NY: Why was there a blue light flashing when Thom met the Fade in Whitebridge?
RJ: Because Thom's best knives are very special indeed.

But he had already lost his best knives by then. *sigh*

EDIT: Thanks to JeffB for pointing out that later editions say 'second-best knives'. That is kind of amusing, actually, that something in the book was changed to meet continuity with an interview. But really, I doubt any other author has been near as good as RJ at answering plot questions like this off the cuff.

But, moving on to the most important part of the chapter: Domon's ship.

1. There was a long conversation with Brandon over the matter of whether or not Rand channeled to deal with the Trolloc that was about to kill him. It lasted a few days (starting here), but in the end, we all agreed that he did, in fact, channel there.

2. Floran Gelb.

"Spare me!" he cried. "Take whatever you want, take the boat, take everything, but spare me!"

He's a character, isn't he? He blabs everything in Whitebridge, and then we see him again in TSR, working for Egeanin. At that point RJ apparently decided he'd had enough of Gelb, but I wouldn't be surprised to see him show up again in AMOL. His name is German for 'yellow', obviously not an accident, and 'Floran' might be derived from 'flora', implying that Gelb was a bit of a pansy. But if anyone is a parallel to Yellowbeard, it's Domon.

3. I find Domon to be one of the most interesting characters upon introduction. Obviously, he becomes a major player in the series, appearing in TGH, and again in TSR, and finally hooking up with Mat in WH. A good taste of his character, along with another hint about the Horn's connection to Illian:

"You come below," Captain Domon said, "where I can see what manner of thing be hauled up on my deck. Come. Fortune desert me, somebody secure this horn-cursed boom!" As crewmen rushed to take the boom, he stumped off toward the stern of the boat. Rand and his two companions followed.

Thom mentioned in chapter eighteen that men in the Borderlands hunt the Eye of the World like men in Illian hunt the Horn.

We get a piece of the foreshadowed story on the Shadowspawn up in Saldaea:

Thom leaned forward interestedly. "You have had encounters with Trollocs before? Lately?"

Domon hesitated, eyeing Thom narrowly, but when he spoke he merely sounded disgusted. "I wintered in Saldaea, man. Not my choice, but the river froze early and the ice broke up late. They say you can see the Blight from the highest towers in Maradon, but I've no mind for that. I've been there before, and there always be talk of Trollocs attacking a farm or the like. This winter past, though, there be farms burning every night. Aye, and whole villages, too, betimes. They even came right up to the city walls. And if that no be bad enough, the people be all saying it meant the Dark One be stirring, that the Last Days be come." He gave a shiver, and scratched at his head as if the thought made his scalp itch. "I can no wait to get back where people think Trollocs be just tales, the stories I tell be traveler's lies."

Of course, that didn't turn out so well as Domon expected.

On to the final point of the chapter...poor Rand realizes that the ship is traveling fast, leaving poor Egwene behind. This might be the first time in the series that Rand pulls the Dimmesdale act (really, the parallel exists on many levels of Rand's character), beating himself up for the women he can't protect:

"I tried to talk her out of coming," Rand said.

"You did what you could, lad. No one could ask more."

"I told her I'd take care of her. I should have tried harder." The creak of the sweeps and the hum of the rigging in the wind made a mournful tune. "I should have tried harder," he whispered.

Just a taste of the interconnectivity: Four times Rand visits Shadar Logoth. The first time, he leaves Egwene behind, not to mention Nynaeve and Perrin. The second time (in LOC21), he leaves Liah behind.  And the Two Rivers all over again, as quoted in chapter eight (he takes the Ogier there by gateway). The day before that second visit, Sammael sends Andris with a message of truce for Rand (LOC16, LOC23). Eight days after, Fain's Whitecloaks attack Rand in Caemlyn (LOC28), and yet another Maiden (Desora) dies for him (LOC26). When Fain gives Rand his second never-healing wound in ACOS36, Rand makes his third visit to Shadar Logoth as soon as he wakes up (ACOS41), which was totally by chance since that was where Sammael had planned his escape route from Illian (which he thought about when talking to Graendal in LOC6). Contrast Domon wanting to get the hell out of Shadar Logoth and back to Illian.  On the fourth visit, Rand and Nynaeve (accompanied by Lan) destroy the place in the process of cleansing the taint from saidin - the taint Rand feared would lead him to kill everyone he loved. Unlike the first time, Ishamael is the only one of the Forsaken not there (aside from Mesaana, who skipped out). Just before that visit, Rand meets Fain in Far Madding (WH33), for the first time since ACOS36. And while Moiraine lost control of the situation at Shadar Logoth (momentarily, anyway), Cadsuane held everything together in WH35 while Rand did his thing.

Rand was rather depressed about leaving Egwene behind. But despite Thom's hints of protectiveness, he seems both resigned and resolute about leaving Moiraine behind:

"No use staying here all night," Thom said. "Pick a direction. Upriver, or down?"

"But Moiraine and the others could be anywhere," Mat protested. "Any way we choose could just take us further away."

"So it could." Clucking to his gelding, Thom turned downriver, heading along the bank. "So it could."

That's okay, though. Because on Domon's ship, Mat catches sight of something that somehow, Thom missed. That thing turned out to be pretty important, wouldn't you say?

And on that note, I will see you guys next time. Thanks to chapter 24 especially, the fare is no lighter. But it's good stuff.