Bashere, the Broken Crown, and Something Dark

There has been some speculation over the years that Davram Bashere might be a Darkfriend. Partly this is because Bashere threw a knife at Rand's heart in their early acquaintance. He had a good enough reason for doing it, and it's not like he's stupid enough to kill the Dragon Reborn in front of a bunch of Andoran nobles who hate him, but the other reason is this viewing of Min's:

TITLE—Crossroads of Twilight
CHAPTER: 24—A Strengthening Storm

“You have to do something,” Min muttered, folding her arms beneath her breasts. “Logain’s aura still speaks of glory, stronger than ever. Maybe he still thinks he’s the real Dragon Reborn. And there’s something...dark...in the images I saw around Lord Davram. If he turns against you, or dies...I heard one of the sol­diers say Lord Dobraine might die. Losing even one of them would be a blow. Lose all three, and it might take you a year to recover.”

I'm not going to argue the point here that Bashere isn't a Darkfriend. I think it's made clear enough by his actions throughout the book, and particularly by his POV in the COT prologue. This scene often confuses first- and even second-time (or more) readers. Basically, Logain (who is the mysterious unnamed person in the scene) had the Warders that could track down the Aes Sedai with Rand, so he (unlike Bashere) knew how to find Rand. He just wasn't stupid enough to show up on Rand's doorstep without someone in the inner circle for an escort (he hadn't had the pleasure of meeting Rand yet). That's why Logain needed Bashere. Apparently, Bashere was reluctant to show up on Rand's doorstep with Logain, so he resisted at first despite the temptation. When Bashere's tent was attacked by someone looking for the seals (which he deduced immediately), he decided he needed to find Rand—hardly the actions of a Darkfriend (despite all the other things in Bashere's favor, including his lack of issues in Maradon)—and for that, Bashere needed Logain. They don't trust each other much, but Min at least recognizes that both of them are important to Rand.

So, if Bashere is not a Darkfriend, then he's most likely going to die (and would likely die in either case). Even more fitting would be if his death involved him being betrayed in some way, but I will get to the betrayal in a moment.

The death is almost certain simply because his inconvenient place of the Saldaean line of succession. Bashere is Tenobia's heir, and Faile is after Bashere, so in order for Faile to be queen, both Tenobia and Bashere have to either abdicate or die. We have hints that Perrin will wear the Broken Crown—in fact, we have three very good hints—and we also have hints that both Bashere and Tenobia will die aside from the fact that they are in the way of Perrin's crown.

Some would argue that Faile has to die as well, and while that is entirely possible, it's doubtful simply because Perrin's claim is through her. It would be easier to see if she died after crowning, but it doesn't seem there is enough time for all that in AMOL. More likely is that Saldaea has a joint monarchy; this is hinted at in Nynaeve's Accepted test:

TITLE—The Great Hunt
CHAPTER: 23—The Testing

"As my wife, how could you not be Queen? We are Malkieri here, not southlanders. You were crowned in the Seven Towers at the same time we exchanged rings." Unconsciously he moved his left hand; a plain gold band encircled his forefinger. She glanced at her own hand, at the ring she knew would be there; she clasped her other hand over it, but whether to deny its presence by hiding it or to hold it, she could not have said. "Do you remember, now?" he went on. He stretched out a hand as if to brush her cheek, and she went back another six steps. He sighed. "As you wish, my love. We have three children, though only one can properly be called a baby. Maric is almost to your shoulder and can't decide if he likes horses or books better. Elnore has already begun practicing how to turn boys' heads, when she is not pestering Sharina about when she'll be old enough to go to the White Tower."

This quote comes with an extra punch because of the mention of Sharina, whom Nynaeve has not yet met. Sharina is one of the very few who is stronger than Nynaeve, and she is already setting herself up to be Mistress of Novices one day—perhaps very soon—so this quote has a hint of prophecy. That being said, Ethenielle, Queen of Kandor, had a Prince Consort—Brys, who was killed by Merean in New Spring—rather than a King Consort. However, it may be that RJ had Perrin and Saldaea in mind when he wrote the scene in TGH, but he forgot the little detail of the Borderlands and joint monarchies by the time he wrote New Spring; RJ had already tied Perrin to Maradon in TEOTW with the story he and Egwene gave to Elyas. (Funny that one of the reasons Elyas didn't buy their story is probably that they don't have Saldaean features, but Perrin will likely be king of Saldaea one day anyway; another reason is that they mentioned they'd like to see the king, but Elyas knew Saldaea had a queen.) Further tying Perrin to the Broken Crown in TEOTW is one of Min's first viewings of Perrin:

TITLE—The Eye of the World
CHAPTER: 15—Strangers and Friends

"The War ... ah ... Master Andra has seven ruined towers around his head, and a babe in a cradle holding a sword, and ... " She shook her head. "Men like him—you understand?—always have so many images they crowd one another. The strongest images around the gleeman are a man—not him&mdash'juggling fire, and the White Tower, and that doesn't make any sense at all for a man. The strongest things I see about the big, curly-haired fellow are a wolf, and a broken crown, and trees flowering all around him. And the other one—a red eagle, an eye on a balance scale, a dagger with a ruby, a horn, and a laughing face. There are other things, but you see what I mean. This time I can't make up or down out of any of it." She waited then, still grinning, until he finally cleared his throat and asked.

These viewings are undoubtedly some of the most centrally important character traits for each person. Some have argued that the viewing simply refers to his marriage to Faile, who will wear the crown, but there's foreshadowing of Perrin actually wearing that crown.

TITLE—The Great Hunt
CHAPTER: 8—The Dragon Reborn

Leane blinked, and her smile faded to a thoughtful look. "This is supposed to be a shepherd, Lan Gaidin? He was not so sure of himself this morning."

"He is a man, Leane Sedai," Lan said firmly, "no more, and no less. We are what we are."

The Aes Sedai shook her head. "The world grows stranger every day. I suppose the blacksmith will wear a crown and speak in High Chant. Wait here." She vanished inside to announce them.

Furthermore, we got a good hint from Brandon that this really is foreshadowing.

Brandon on Twitter—18 January 2011
Yes, there is other foreshadowing in the books that I'm not telling you about because it references AMOL.
Terez
I will hopefully catch some of those, though I'm bound to catch a few red herrings as well. :)
Brandon
I just passed a big one in TGH.
Terez
haha, and you know I will be scouring the pages of your vicinity looking for it. :D
Terez
My first guess: Mat is immune to Fain's dagger. (ch. 7) Second guess: foreshadowing of Cyndane's importance in AMOL.
Terez
3rd: Slayer's role in AMOL. 4th: Perrin puts on a crown and speaks in High Chant. (the crown at least seems likely)
Brandon
Nope and nope. It's a very innocent line, and I won't tell you more than that. You'll spot it once you read AMOL.
[IMPORTANT NOTE: He was responding to my first two guesses, and not the second two guesses.]
Matt Hatch—1 January 2011
Readers, let's go HCFF on an "innocent" comment by @BrandonSandrson re: an AMoL foreshadowing in TGH, discuss! http://bit.ly/gMZvLI
Brandon
I've seen someone post on the innocent comment before, FYI. In fact, it was recent.
[He didn't say how recent.]
Brandon
And Terez has sniffed at it before, I know.
[I don't believe Brandon follows me around on Theoryland. I also don't believe there is anything else noteworthy in those chapters I have 'sniffed' at before—not where he was likely to have seen it, and certainly not recently.]
Terez
Do you mean sniff as in turn my nose up at it? Or as in I got in the ballpark? Important distinction.
Terez
Also, I do not sniff.
Brandon—20 January 2011
"Sniff" as in I've seen you poke at the line before, and ponder if it has meaning.

And finally, when Perrin makes the acquaintance of Bashere, his new father-in-law, Bashere believes Perrin might be after the Broken Crown.

TITLE—Lord of Chaos
CHAPTER: 46—Beyond the Gates

Bashere filled the cups and thrust one at Perrin, gesturing peremptorily to one of the chairs. He wore a smile behind his mustaches, but eyes and smile could have belonged to two different men. The eyes could have driven nails. "I suppose Zarine told you all about my estates before you... married her. All about the Broken Crown. She was always talkative as a girl."

The man remained standing, so Perrin did as well. Broken crown? Faile had certainly never mentioned any broken crown. "First she told me you were a fur trader. Or maybe it was a lumber merchant first, and then a fur trader. You sold ice peppers, too." Bashere gave a start, repeating "Fur trader?" incredulously under his breath. "Her story changed," Perrin went on, "but once too often she repeated something you had said about how a general should behave, and I asked her straight out, and... " He peered into his wine, then made himself meet the other man’s eyes. "When I found out who you were, I almost changed my mind about marrying her, only she had her mind set, and when Faile has her mind set, shifting her is like shifting a hitch of mules that have all decided to sit down at once. Besides, I loved her. I love her."

We know that Tenobia is childless and will probably never get married, and Min had a viewing of violence around her in TOM:

TITLE—Towers of Midnight
CHAPTER: 51—A Testing

"Tenobia has a spear hovering over her head," Min said. "Bloody, but shining in the light. Ethenielle will soon be wed—I see that by white doves. She plans to do something dangerous today, so be careful. The other two have various swords, shields and arrows hovering about them. Both will fight soon."

Many think this mean that Tenobia will die bravely in the Last Battle. Also in TOM, Faile confirmed that she was second in the line of succession:

TITLE—Towers of Midnight
CHAPTER: 47—A Teaching Chamber

"Your Majesty," Faile continued, "there is much to gain here. Through my marriage to Perrin, you gain a tie to Saldaea. Through Alliandre's oaths, you gain Ghealdan. Berelain also follows Perrin and has often mentioned her desire to find strong allies for Mayene. If we were to speak with her, I suspect she might be willing to make an alliance with us. We could create our own pact. Five nations, if you count the Two Rivers as one—six, if you do take the Sun Throne, as rumor claims you will. We are not the most powerful nations, but the many are stronger than the one. And you would be at our head."

Elayne's face had lost almost all of its hostility. "Saldaea. What are you in its line of succession?"

"I'm second," Faile admitted, which Elayne probably already knew. Perrin shifted in his chair. She knew he was still uncomfortable with that fact; well, he would simply have to get used to it.

"Second is too close," Elayne replied. "What if you end up with the throne of Saldaea? I could lose the Two Rivers to another country that way."

"This is easy to fix," Alliandre said. "If Faile were to ascend, one of her and Perrin's children could continue as Lord of the Two Rivers. Another could take the throne of Saldaea. Put it in writing, and you will be protected."

So, together with the three foreshadowings of Perrin and the Broken Crown (one of which is a prophecy), Tenobia's shining spear, and Bashere's something dark, it seems almost certain that Perrin will end up ruling Saldaea with Faile.

Now, back to the something dark, and the betrayal. It could be that Tenobia will unmask Bashere as a Darkfriend, and die in the process. But since we're pretty sure he's not a Darkfriend, it seems likely he will be betrayed by someone. Tenobia seems unlikely since her spear is shining in the light, but Sheriam's halo was misleading, so why not this? Sheriam's fulfillment was satisfying enough, but a spear shining in the sun before it kills Tenobia won't cut it. (Any ideas on that?)

I think the most probable scenario is that Bashere will be betrayed by someone other than Tenobia (who will die a glorious death in the Last Battle). He might be betrayed by one of his men, but it seems to call for something bigger. And so, the most obvious candidate for betrayal of Bashere is his other army: The Legion of the Dragon.

The theme of Lord of Chaos was, of course, 'let the lord of chaos rule'. That has been a theme for a while now, but it's the theme that kicked off the book (in the prologue, Demandred visited Shayol Ghul, and later in the same prologue met with Mesaana, Semirhage, and Graendal to tell them about it). It's also the theme that ended the book, as Demandred and the Dark One have a laugh together at how well things are going. The principle comes from a holiday known as the Feast of Fools, or Foolday (or perhaps the holiday comes from a remembrance of Rand in a previous turning):

The Feast of Fools

Celebrated in Tammaz (in Arad Doman and the Borderlands) or Saven (everywhere else), the exact day varying according to locality. A day in which all order is deliberately inverted; the high perform lowly tasks (running errands, serving at table, etc.) while the low do no work and give orders to their usual superiors. In many villages and towns the most foolish person is given a title such as the Lord/Lady of Unreason/Misrule/Chaos or the King/Queen of Fools. Not an honor sought, but for that one day everyone has to obey whatever orders, however foolish, are given by the chosen one. (Called the Festival of Unreason in Saldaea; the Festival of Fools in Kandor; Foolday in Baerlon and the Two Rivers.)

The idea is to let Rand rule, and to subvert his rule by worming various people into his administration who will help him screw things up. Taim is the most obvious of these (which is part of why some believed Taim was Demandred), thanks to Joiya.

TITLE—The Shadow Rising
CHAPTER: 5—Questioners

"Give us your tale again," Egwene commanded. "Use different words, this time. I am tired of listening to memorized stories." If she was lying, there was more chance she would trip herself up telling it differently. "We will hear you out." That was for Nynaeve's benefit; she gave a loud sniff, then a curt nod.

Joiya shrugged. "As you wish. Let me see. Different words. The false Dragon, Mazrim Taim, who was captured in Saldaea, can channel with incredible strength. Perhaps as much as Rand al'Thor, or nearly so, if the reports can be believed. Before he can be brought to Tar Valon and gentled, Liandrin means to break him free. He will be proclaimed as the Dragon Reborn, his name given as Rand al'Thor, and then he will be set to destruction on such a scale as the world has not seen since the War of the Hundred Years."

"That is impossible," Nynaeve broke in. "The Pattern will not accept a false Dragon, not now that Rand has proclaimed himself."

Nynaeve is, of course, correct...but in the end, what Taim has done really resembles Liandrin's plan quite a bit.

I believe Taim was probably taking orders from Demandred from the beginning. He was freed (probably by the Black Ajah, since Aes Sedai were killed), and then he headed for Caemlyn, possibly to seek aid from Rahvin. He then probably ended up getting snapped up by Demandred, who had heard about Rand's plans for amnesty when Bashere showed up. Then, 37 days after Rand met Bashere (according to Steven Cooper's chronology), Taim showed up, seal in hand, complete with BS story about where he had gotten it. A token to buy Rand's trust. Demandred had probably ferreted out the location of the farm and had already developed a plan to subvert it. Taim immediately started trying to talk Rand into letting him recruit. Four days after Taim got the job, Demandred was seen spying on Caemlyn in Tel'aran'rhiod. Three days after that, Taim had another brilliant idea:

TITLE—Lord of Chaos
CHAPTER: 11—Lessons and Teachers

"What do you intend, though? Just ride in and announce that you’re looking for men who want to channel? You’ll be lucky if the villagers don’t try to hang you."

"I can be a little more circumspect than that," Taim said dryly. "I will say I’m recruiting men to follow the Dragon Reborn." A little more circumspect? Not much. "That should frighten the people just enough to keep them from my throat long enough to gather in whoever is willing. And it culls out anybody who isn’t ready to support you. I don’t suppose you mean to train up men who’ll turn on you the first chance they find." He raised a questioning eyebrow, but did not wait for the unnecessary answer. "Once I have them safely away from the village, I can bring them here through a gateway. Some might panic, but they should not be too hard to handle. Once they’ve agreed to follow a man who can channel, they can hardly balk at letting me test them. Those who fail, I’ll send on to Caemlyn. It’s time you started raising an army of your own instead of depending on others. Bashere could change his mind; he will, if Queen Tenobia tells him to. And who can know what these so-called Aiel will do."

I've detailed here why, exactly, I think the Legion of the Dragon is suspicious. Part of the reason is that they adopted the Illianers who were most loyal to Sammael. The leader of those Illianers, Eagan Padros, tried to kill Rand at a time when several others were working toward the same aim (namely Weiramon and the renegade Asha'man sent to Altara by Taim). And they were Taim's idea (which means they were likely Demandred's idea, especially seeing as how Taim didn't come up with it on the spot, but rather after seven days training men at the farm). The most suspicious detail is that they are crafted to be the personal army of the Dragon Reborn at a time when the standing order from the Dark One is to 'let the lord of chaos rule', and there are multiple attempts to turn Rand against the Aiel (his real personal army).

Since Bashere's attention is primarily focused on his nine thousand Saldaean horse, there has no doubt been plenty of opportunity for the Dark Side to send officer types Bashere's way. In fact, it seems likely that Bashere has appointed someone in the Legion to promote lesser officers. They are trained according to infantry techniques designed by Mat and Bashere, which makes them dangerous (especially since Mat and Bashere have not really been around much to hold their loyalty, since both of them have other armies to lead).

And so, I think Bashere's 'something dark' will probably have something to do with the Legion of the Dragon, and it will probably involve his death. Tenobia seems like she's too easy, and Legion is a nice Biblical parallel for an evil army. I doubt every person in it is evil, but it was a rather good opportunity to mobilize Darkfriends under the banner of the Dragon Reborn. The Black Tower was obviously the biggest coup, but the Legion was a nice secondary coup. According to the TOM glossary, they are at present training for the Last Battle. What part will they play in Demondred's plans for Caemlyn?

***

As an aside, while writing this post, I re-read the whole chapter where Perrin met Faile's parents, and it made me think of Abby Goldsmith's comments on Saldaean S&M. I never really thought about these little things being indicative of Saldaeans as a whole being into the S&M thing, but that does seem to be the case. I suppose I don't really dwell on the sexuality of the books so much, but despite not dwelling on it, it's really in-your-face at times that RJ had a few gender-imbalanced ideas about sexuality in general. That being said, I'm glad he was willing to write in a mainstream and even family-friendly epic about sexual kinks. In general, there's nothing wrong with them. It's the gender imbalance that becomes bothersome, and this was mostly a product of RJ's self-admitted difficulty in dealing with male sexuality in his stories, and his ideas about the importance of upper-body strength. We have Far Madding, and Elza/Fearil, but those are hardly equitable examples. One seems to be a city full of old women (or young women who act like old women), and the other is a Darkfriend. Tylin is into bondage, but she is a rapist as far as most readers are concerned. Is Altara a balance for Saldaea? Worth noting is that Myrelle, another rapist, is also Altaran—in Tel'aran'rhiod she's been seen with a rather confused marriage knife from time to time. (She used Compulsion on Lan through the bond; apparently she is skilled at doing this undetected, hence her success with widowed Warders.)

As another aside, I also ended up re-reading a bit of the chapter where Perrin and Faile meet with Elayne, and once again, I was pretty disgusted with Elayne's newfound greed for power. She's shown signs of that before, at least as early as ACOS in what happens to be one of my favorite chapters of the series (The First Cup). No, further back for sure, when she played her little game with Mat and the Redarms on the way to Ebou Dar. Really, she was imperious when we first met her. But I think she started to get a little drunk on power during the siege of Caemlyn, and the return of Morgase in TOM made it even worse. I really hope Moiraine smacks her in AMOL.

UPDATE: Thanks to sleepinghour and David Selig for reminding me of this bit from the TOM glossary:

Saldaea (sahl-DAY-ee-ya): One of the Borderlands. The sign of Saldaea is three silver fish on a field of dark blue. Its capital is Maradon, and its royal palace is known as the Cordamora (from the Old Tongue for "Heart of the People"). It is ruled by a king or queen, and is a hereditary monarchy. The Crown High Council, also known as the Council of Lords, advises and assists the monarch in administering the nation. The husband or wife of a Saldaean ruler is not simply a consort, but an almost co-equal ruler. Saldaea is currently ruled by Her Most Illumined Majesty, Tenobia si Bashere Kazadi, Queen of Saldaea, Defender of the Light, Sword of the Blightborder, High Seat of House Kazadi and Lady of Shahanyi, Asnelle, Kunwar and Ganai; her Marshal-General and the leader of her army is her uncle and heir, Davram Bashere, although he has been missing from his post for some time.

Mat vs. Tuon, and the Horn of Valere

I apologize to those who have read some of my other AMOL theories; I repeat myself a lot in an effort to make sure this one is clear. Nearly every event in AMOL is by necessity tied together, because everything will be essentially happening all at once. One thing leads to another. Apparently RJ's notes were most detailed for the action in this book, and Team Jordan thinks they have this book pretty much nailed down. So by necessity this little write-up covers a large percentage of what I think will be happening in AMOL; this is just a piece of it that I haven't written much about (and other pieces I have written some, but little, about).
The conflict with the Seanchan is obviously the greatest hurdle Rand has to overcome before he can win the Last Battle. The trouble brewing in Caemlyn and at the Black Tower is really a part of the Last Battle, the opening moves of the Shadow's offensive, but Tuon is still far from being in the bag. Last we heard from her, she was planning on attacking the White Tower again (though she might have gotten wind of Merrilor and changed her plans). Rand has to have the Seanchan on his side, or he will lose:

TITLE - Knife of Dreams
CHAPTER: 18 - News for the Dragon

Rand dropped back into his chair, stretching his legs in front of him and crossing his ankles. “It doesn’t matter how unpopular it is. I went through that doorframe ter’angreal in Tear, Cadsuane. You know about that?” Golden ornaments bobbled as she nodded impatiently. “One of my questions for the Aelfinn was ‘How can I win the Last Battle?’”

“A dangerous question to pose,” she said quietly, “touching on the Shadow as it does. Supposedly, the results can be quite unpleasant. What was the answer?”

‘The north and the east must be as one. The west and the south must be as one. The two must be as one.’” He blew a smoke ring, put another in the middle of it as it expanded. That was not the whole of it. He had asked how to win and survive. The last part of his answer had been ‘To live, you must die.’ Not something he was going to bring up in front of Min anytime soon. In front of anyone except Alivia, for that matter. Now he just had to figure out how to live by dying. “At first, I thought it meant I had to conquer everywhere, but that wasn’t what they said. What if it means the Seanchan hold the west and south, as you could say they already do, and there’s an alliance to fight the Last Battle, the Seanchan with everybody else?”

“It’s possible,” she allowed. “But if you’re going to make this...truce...why are you moving what seems to be a considerable army to Arad Doman and reinforcing what is already in Illian?”

“Because Tarmon Gai’don is coming, Cadsuane, and I can’t fight the Shadow and the Seanchan at the same time. I’ll have a truce, or I’ll crush them whatever the cost. The Prophecies say I have to bind the nine moons to me. I only understood what that meant a few days ago. As soon as Bashere returns, I’ll know when and where I’m to meet the Daughter of the Nine Moons. The only question now is how do I bind her, and she’ll have to answer that."

There is a certain amount of symbolic significance in the fact that Mat and Tuon have married; typically marriage ceremonies purport to join two people as one, and of course that is also a reference to the actual consummation of the marriage, which has notably not happened yet. But considering the prophetic importance of that marriage, it's not unreasonable to assume that it will be important to making the two 'as one'.

Certainly, RJ took care to write Mat into some situations where he was inclined to take a stance on the issues that are most central to the Seanchan conflict, namely the damane problem, and Mat made it clear to Tuon that he wouldn't accept the collaring of women who can channel. There are other problems with Seanchan society, including the da'covale, the Seeker organization, etc., but the damane issue has been framed as the main problem. Rand emphasized that he would not concede that point. Egwene's long term angst over that issue is not likely to have concluded with the Mesaana episode, either; this is something that Egwene needs to work out with the Seanchan (though it's not clear why she wasn't able to do so in the future Aviendha saw).

Mat and Egwene have also both been noted for their bargaining skills, more than any of the other Two Rivers characters. Mat's father was the best horse trader in the Two Rivers, and Egwene's father was the mayor, and probably responsible for bargaining with merchants. Could this be because they will be the ones to hammer out the terms of the truce? The prophecy Rand mentioned, that he will bind the nine moons to serve him, might point to the Oath Rod (called a 'binder' in the Age of Legends).

When Mat left Tuon in Altara, they agreed to disagree:

TITLE - Knife of Dreams
CHAPTER: 36 - Under an Oak

“One more kiss before you leave?”

“I’m not in the mood at the moment,” she said coolly. That hanging magistrate was back. All prisoners to be condemned immediately. “Perhaps later. You could return to Ebou Dar with me. You have an honored place in the Empire, now."

He did not hesitate before shaking his head. There was no honored place waiting for Leilwin or Domon, no place at all for the Aes Sedai or the Band. “The next time I see Seanchan, I expect it will be on the field somewhere, Tuon.” Burn him, it would be. His life seemed to run that way no matter what he did. “You’re not my enemy, but your Empire is.”

“Nor are you my enemy, husband,” she said coolly, “but I live to serve the Empire.”

Obviously it can't stay this way forever. But when will they work it out, and how? If Aviendha saw the most likely future at the time she entered, then it may be that she saw a future without Mat, though that doesn't make much sense from a logistics perspective. But one thing that RJ has made clear is that the damane issue will be resolved. Mat will never accept his place in Seanchan society so long as they continue to collar channelers, so what gives? It's not clear yet, but it's definitely clear that the real future will be different from the one Aviendha saw. Again, I think the Oath Rod to be the most likely compromise; Aviendha's future simply had a different fulfillment of the prophecy - a simpler fulfillment matching the average reader's expectations for it. However, it's possible that we can chalk it up at least somewhat to this:

Knife of Dreams book tour, Santa Cruz, CA 29 October 2005 - hermano de lobos reporting

...One person asked something to the effect of 'How valid are the viewings and prophecies, given that the Pattern has been loosened?' There was also a comment by the person about how the viewings and prophecies are readings of the Pattern.

Jordan responded (not word for word): The viewings and prophecies that occurred before the loosening of the Pattern are very valid. But those that occurred at, or after, the loosening have a higher chance of not coming true.

By this logic, it would also make sense that prophecies given recently, as the state of the Pattern has gotten worse, have an even higher chance of not coming true. That's not to say that the vision was pointless; undoubtedly there were a lot of truths in it that Aviendha needed to understand in order to optimize the future of the Aiel. But a careful examination of that vision might have some logical contradictions. No doubt the ending will be very different than what that vision led us to believe, and we will find ourselves asking, 'How is it that Rand was successful without X event? He should have lost.'

It doesn't seem that Rand has a lot of time to work things out before things go crazy; they were already crazy at the end of TOM. Some think it will be as simple as, Mat shows up at Merrilor, says, "Oh, you want a truce with Tuon? I'll go get her." Rand does what he plans, threatens her with not going to Shayol Ghul to save the world, and then they go against the Black Tower together. However, there are many details indicating it won't exactly work out that way.

For one thing, there are (at least) three prophecies that work together to indicate that Rand will die before his truce with the Seanchan is accomplished. The presumed reason is that he is somehow linked with Moridin. They are merging. (I will do another post on that soon, since we have a little bit of new info.) Rand has to die in order to sever the connection between them - this is presumably why the Aelfinn said that, in order to survive the Last Battle, Rand must die. To avoid this post getting too long, I'll just link to the aforementioned three prophecies via my Blood on the Rocks FAQ page (which might get updated soon for evolving evidence): Egwene's Dream of Logain, Nicola's Foretelling, and a Dream shared by Bair and Melaine (immediately following the Nicola Foretelling in the link). Those three prophecies together indicate that Rand will be dead yet living on a boat with his three wives on the boat with him. The 'dead yet lives' line explains the 'paper puppet' nature of Rand's body in the Dream of Logain, where Logain steps over Rand's body to mount a black stone (probably indicative of him taking charge of the Asha'man). I believe that the evidence overwhelmingly supports the idea that Rand will be resurrected by Nynaeve, in the same way that Moghedien resurrected Birgitte.

We can assume that the scenario of the boat and the scenario of Logain are roughly concurrent, though the Logain bit might happen slightly before the boat. At the time of the boat, the world 'teeters on the edge of a blade', or it's 'a scale tilting first one way, then the other'. This would seem to indicate that the fate of the world depends on Rand's return. Therefore the 'great battle' referenced by Nicola probably does not refer to the Last Battle, else Rand's return would probably be relatively unimportant. It more likely refers to Demandred's gambit with Caemlyn and the Black Tower - the parallel to the legendary Battle of Camlann where King Arthur was killed by Mordred (who has many parallels in WoT, including Demandred, Moridin, Mordeth/Fain, Moiraine, and Gawyn).

And so, after Rand dies but before he is resurrected, the guardians balance the servants (Asha'man and Aes Sedai), and the land is divided by the Return (and not done with battle). This indicates to me that the Black Tower issue is resolved, but the Seanchan truce is not. This actually fits with the prophecies, since nothing in them indicates that Rand will be the one to make the peace. Aviendha's vision of the future indicates that, but it obviously has differences from the future that is prophesied. If the 'great battle' was the Last Battle, then the Peace should have already been established, aside from the fact that the fate of the world should no longer hang in the balance (though we can't say as much for the fate of the Aiel).

So, that brings us back to Mat and Tuon. Let's assume that Rand is dead, and everyone is freaking out. Not the harem or Nynaeve, because they know how to resurrect Rand and they are working on it. Presumably, they won't tell anyone, except maybe a few people.

It could be that the cataclysmic horror of Rand's death is enough to make Tuon go for the truce, but something tells me that her pride will stand in the way even then. Last we heard, she was planning on attacking the Tower again, and who knows how that will go? Also, the Seanchan conflict has been running since TGH, and there are a whole lot of ingredients planted in the early books that give a possibility for a truly epic resolution of that particular plotline - and I think Rand will be, for the most part, uninvolved.

One of those clues in the early books is something that hasn't been talked about much since then. Why does legend tie the Horn of Valere to Illian? It just so happens that Illian is the only nation where Rand actually holds a crown, and also, Illian borders Altara, where Tuon has her capital. They have already fought one war on that front, and all it accomplished for Rand was that he managed to prevent Tuon from invading Illian...for the moment. It was a hard-fought campaign with heavy casualties on both sides, partly due to Rand's unfortunate incident with Callandor.

Only two characters in the series emphasize the fact that Illian is tied to the Horn in legend - Moiraine and Thom. Moiraine's beliefs are so insistent (and spoken right out) that one wonders if there is a Foretelling known only in the Tower that ties the Horn to Illian (but not to Rand or the Last Battle - there is another Foretelling that does that).

TITLE - The Eye of the World
CHAPTER: 53 - The Wheel Turns

Moiraine motioned for Loial to set the gold chest at her feet, and when he did, she opened it, revealing the horn. "The Horn of Valere," she said, and Agelmar gasped. Rand almost thought the man would kneel.

"With that, Moiraine Sedai, it matters not how many Halfmen or Trollocs remain. With the heroes of old come back from the tomb, we will march to the Blasted Lands and level Shayol Ghul."

"NO!" Agelmar's mouth fell open in surprise, but Moiraine continued calmly. "I did not show it to you to taunt you, but so that you will know that in whatever battles yet come, our might will be as great as that of the Shadow. Its place is not here. The Horn must be carried to Illian. It is there, if fresh battles threaten, that it must rally the forces of the Light. I will ask an escort of your best men to see that it reaches Illian safely. There are Darkfriends still, as well as Halfmen and Trollocs, and those who come to the horn will follow whoever winds it. It must reach Illian."

Thom says that 'all the legends' tie the Horn to Illian:

TITLE - The Great Hunt
CHAPTER: 26 - Discord

The gleeman pushed back his chair and went to stare out of the window. "The Horn of Valere. That means the Last Battle is coming. Who will notice? Did you see the people laughing in the streets out there? Let the grain barges stop a week, and they won't laugh. Galldrian will think they've all become Aiel. The nobles all play the Game of Houses, scheming to get close to the King, scheming to gain more power than the King, scheming to pull down Galldrian and be the next King. Or Queen. They will think Tarmon Gai'don is only a ploy in the Game." He turned away from the window. "I don't suppose you are talking about simply riding to Shienar and handing the Horn to – who? – the King? Why Shienar? The legends all tie the Horn to Illian."

Rand looked at Loial. The Ogier's ears were sagging. "Shienar, because I know who to give it to, there. And there are Trollocs and Darkfriends after us."

So why hasn't this detail been mentioned since the Horn was blown at Falme?

Most likely, RJ didn't want it to be too obvious how things were going to go. He already set up a fantastic irony in the fact that Hawkwing led the Heroes of the Horn against his descendants at Falme. Assuming Hawkwing hasn't been spun out yet (which he likely has not been), then he will no doubt come to the call of the Horn in AMOL. Mat is the only one who can blow it, unless he gets killed. We don't know where the Horn is, but it was theorized by Linda from Thirteenth Depository (see sidebar links) that Laras knows where it is. In any case, Siuan should know. Also worth noting is that there might be something in Tuon's prophecies that indicates she must secure the Horn of Valere. Obviously the Seanchan are aware of it - that much was made clear with Turak - but how? What do they know of it?

TITLE - Knife of Dreams
CHAPTER: 8 - Dragon's Eggs

Talking with her could be dangerous in other ways, too. “What do you know of the Dragon Reborn?” she asked him another evening.

He choked on a mouthful of wine, and the whirling colors in his brain dissipated in a fit of coughing. The wine was near enough vinegar; but even Nerim had a hard time finding good wine these days. “Well, he’s the Dragon Reborn,” he said when he could speak, wiping wine from his chin with one hand. For a moment, he saw Rand eating at a large dark table. “What else is there to know?” Selucia refilled his cup smoothly.

“A great deal, Toy. For one thing, he must kneel to the Crystal Throne before Tarmon Gai’don. The Prophecies are clear on that, but I haven’t even been able to learn where he is. It becomes still more urgent if he is the one who sounded the Horn of Valere, as I suspect."

“The Horn of Valere?” he said weakly. The Prophecies said what? “It’s been found, then?"

“It must have been, mustn’t it, if it was sounded?” she drawled dryly. “The reports I’ve seen from the place where it was blown, a place called Falme, are very disturbing. Very disturbing. Securing whoever blew the Horn, man or woman, may be as important as securing the Dragon Reborn himself. Are you going to play a stone or not, Toy?”

It may simply be that she heard that Hawkwing fought against her, which is clearly unacceptable, but it's also possible that the Essanik Cycle mentions the Horn, even though Turak did not mention that to Fain. (He only mentioned their legends, and said only that they indicated the Horn was hidden on the Randland continent. He also knew that whoever blew the Horn would be tied to it for life.)

So why Illian?

It seems to me that there is only one truly logical scenario, unless the Shadow is planning on attacking Illian (which would seem to be strategically a waste of time aside from the old 'divide their forces' tactic, which is not all that effective when your enemy can use gateways and you can't). Either Tuon is going to try to invade Illian again, or Mat is going to invade Altara from Illian. The former seems more plausible, simply because it gives a better reason for the Horn to be blown in Illian rather than in Altara. We know from KOD that Rand has deployed half of the Black Tower along the borders of Illian and Arad Doman - the major borders of Seanchan territory:

TITLE - Knife of Dreams
CHAPTER: 18 - News for the Dragon

“More than half the Black Tower is in Arad Doman and Illian. I sent all the men with bonded Aes Sedai except those here, as you ordered.” Logain walked to the table while he talked, found a blue-glazed pitcher that still held wine among the plates and scraps, and filled a green-glazed cup. There was very little silver in the house. “You should have let me bring more men here. The numbers tilt too much to Aes Sedai for my liking.”

Rand's explanation for that (and Cadsuane's reaction to it) are in the first quote I provided. Since Rand's attempt at a truce failed, those troops might still be there, but there is also a chance that Logain will gather them up to go against the Black Tower, so it's questionable whether or not they would be available to Mat.

At the time of the Nicola Foretelling, Rand is dead, but it seems that the Aes Sedai and the Asha'man are finally working together. With Logain at the head of the Asha'man, this would make sense. It also might be supported by Elaida's Foretelling:

TITLE - A Crown of Swords
PROLOGUE - Lightnings

Elaida clenched her fist as though she held all the rebels by the throat. Or Alviarin. "I mean to break them, daughter. They will split open like a rotten melon." Her secret assured that, however many farmers and tailors Lord Bryne hung on to, but let the other woman think as she would. Suddenly the Foretelling took hold of her, a certainty about things she could not see stronger than if they had been laid out before her. She would have been willing to step blindly over a cliff on that certainty. "The White Tower will be whole again, except for remnants cast out and scorned, whole and stronger than ever. Rand al’Thor will face the Amyrlin Seat and know her anger. The Black Tower will be rent in blood and fire, and sisters will walk its grounds. This I Foretell."

One might argue that everything in this has been fulfilled except for the 'rent in blood and fire' bit, though we have at least one more foretold confrontation between Rand and Egwene. In any case, Egwene's decision to set Logain free in LOC might possibly have earned her his favor, so it's not difficult to see them getting along, especially with Rand dead.

My best guess for tying all this together is that Mat will use the Horn to conquer Tuon's empire and force the truce. It's doubtful that he has any interest in being Emperor, but it seems likely that he will use his advantages to convince her to bend on the damane issue. In any case, it will be interesting to see what happens when Mat blows the Horn and meets Hawkwing again. The fact that Mat remembered Hawkwing's face (from Falme and from his borrowed memories) was important to Lydia's Foretelling about her marriage, but those borrowed memories are not conducive to fondness for Hawkwing:

TITLE - Knife of Dreams
CHAPTER: 3 - A Fan of Colors

“Do you remember Hawkwing’s face, Toy?” Mistress Anan blinked in surprise, and Selucia sat up on the bed frowning. At him. Why would she frown at him? Tuon just continued to look at him, hands folded in her lap, as cool and collected as a Wisdom at Sunday.

Mat’s smile felt frozen. Light, what did she know? How could she know anything? He lay beneath the burning sun, holding his side with both hands, trying to keep the last of life from leaking out and won­dering whether there was any reason to hold on. Aldeshar was finished, after this day’s work. A shadow blotted the sun for an instant, and then a tall man in armor crouched beside him, helmet tucked under his arm, dark deep-set eyes framing a hooked nose. “You fought well against me today, Culain, and many days past,” that memorable voice said. “Will you live with me in peace?” With his last breath, he laughed in Artur Hawkwing’s face. He hated to remember dying. A dozen other encounters skit­tered through his mind, too, ancient memories that were his, now. Artur Paendrag had been a difficult man to get along with even before the wars started.

Drawing a deep breath, he took care choosing his words. This was no time to go spouting the Old Tongue. “Of course I don’t!” he lied. A man who could not lie convincingly got short shrift from women. “Light, Hawkwing died a thousand years ago! What kind of question is that?"

Her mouth opened slowly, and for a moment he was sure she meant to answer question with question. “A foolish one, Toy,” she replied finally, instead. “I can’t say why it popped into my head.”

Aldeshar was, coincidentally, the last nation to fall to Hawkwing. Its last king was Ishara's grandfather, and Culain was apparently his Captain General.

I believe that Mat and Hawkwing will probably take care of most of Tuon's objections. Mat ordering Hawkwing will be good fun; Hawkwing was one of the best generals to ever live, but Mat is no doubt better. Mat might even accept Hawkwing's advice on planning the battle against the Seanchan, and then the battle against the remnants of the Shadow's forces. However, Hawkwing could also be influential in convincing Mat that the Empire is a good idea. It is, after all, his legacy...and while he might see it in a different light now that he's dead and he remembers all his past lives, RJ does seem to be setting Tuon up to rule all of Randland (with Mat by her side). The fact that the outriggers were to be about Mat and Tuon five years after the Last Battle might be an indication that they were going to reconquer Seanchan together. But in order for Mat to be happy ruling by Tuon's side (or slightly underneath her, as it may be - I doubt he really cares all that much), then no doubt the damane issue will have to be resolved.

So, the last stop along this line of thought is a combination of two of Egwene's Dreams.

TITLE - Crossroads of Twilight
CHAPTER: 20 - In the Night

She was struggling up a narrow, rocky path along the face of a towering cliff. Clouds surrounded her, hiding the ground below and the crest above, yet she knew that both were very far away. She had to place her feet very carefully. The path was a cracked ledge barely wide enough for her to stand on with one shoulder pressed against the cliff, a ledge littered with stones as large as her fist that could turn under a misplaced step and send her hurtling over the edge. It almost seemed this was like the dreams of pushing millstones and pulling carts, yet she knew it was a true dream.

Abruptly, the ledge dropped away from under her with the crack of crumbling stone, and she caught frantically at the cliff, fingers scrabbling to find a hold. Her fingertips slid into a tiny crevice, and her fall stopped with a jolt that wrenched her arms. Feet dangling into the clouds, she listened to the falling stone crash against the cliff until the sound faded to nothing without the stone ever hitting the ground. Dimly, she could see the broken ledge to her left. Ten feet away, it might as well have been a mile off for all the chance she had of reaching it. In the other direction, the mists hid whatever remained of the path, but she thought it had to be farther away still. There was no strength in her arms. She could not pull herself up, only hang there by her fingertips until she fell. The edge of the crevice seemed as sharp as a knife under her fingers.

Suddenly a woman appeared, clambering down the sheer side of the cliff out of the clouds, making her way as deftly as if she were walking down stairs. There was a sword strapped to her back. Her face wavered, never settling clearly, but the sword seemed as solid as the stone. The woman reached Egwene’s level and held out one hand. “We can reach the top together,” she said in a familiar drawl­ing accent.

Egwene pushed the dream away as she would have a viper. She felt her body thrash, heard herself groan in her sleep, but for a moment she could do nothing. She had dreamed of the Seanchan before, of a Seanchan woman somehow tied to her, but this was a Seanchan who would save her. No! They had put a leash on her, made her damane. She would as soon die as be saved by a Seanchan! A very long time passed before she could address herself to calming her sleeping body. Or maybe it only seemed a long time. Not a Seanchan; never that!

Because of the cliché-sounding 'reach the top' phrase, many believed that this prophecy indicated that a Seanchan would help Egwene (officially) gain the Amyrlin Seat, but it didn't turn out that way. Some thought after TGS that it had been fulfilled in a very metaphorical way, but Brandon said that it was not:

The Gathering Storm Book Tour, Borders Dallas 14 November 2009 - Matoyak reporting

Mato: Have the visions and other such prophecies about Egwene and the Seanchan (such as the running one and the one with the sword) have they been fulfilled yet?
Sanderson: No, none of those have been fulfilled other than the attack on the White Tower. She still has more to go.

It may be that the rocky path is Egwene's struggle to prepare the White Tower for the Last Battle. The ledge collapsing underneath her might represent Rand's death before the (presumed) appointed time. Many think the woman is Egeanin, or Tylee, or even Seta or Bethamin, but there is another Dream connecting Egwene to a female golden hawk:

TITLE - A Crown of Swords
CHAPTER: 10 - Unseen Eyes

A golden hawk stretched out its wing and touched her, and she and the hawk were tied together somehow; all she knew was that the hawk was female.

Technically, this could refer to Berelain, so technically, it may be that neither Dream refers to Tuon. But considering the fact that Egwene's major drama with the Seanchan began on Toman Head, it doesn't seem that Berelain can compete. In fact, there is foreshadowing that Berelain might become 'adopted' into the royal family (in truth, the Firsts of Mayene are actually descended from Hawkwing's daughter who was sent to conquer Shara, just as Tuon is descended from Luthair):

TITLE - The Shadow Rising
CHAPTER: 14 - Customs of Mayene

"Serving girl? Serving girl! I am —" Faile bit her tongue to stop the furious words. The First of Mayene, indeed. There were estates in Saldaea larger than Mayene. She would not last a week in the courts of Saldaea. Could she recite poetry while hawking? Could she ride in the hunt all day, then play the bittern at night while discussing how to counter Trolloc raids? She thought she knew men, did she? Did she know the language of fans? Could she tell a man to come or go or stay, and a hundred things more, all with the twist of a wrist and the placement of a lace fan? Light shine on me, what am I thinking? I swore I would never even hold a fan again! But there were other Saldaean customs. She was surprised to see the knife in her hand; she had been taught not to draw a knife unless she meant to use it. "Farm girls in Saldaea have a way of dealing with women who poach others' men. If you do not swear to forget Perrin Aybara, I will shave your head as bald as an egg. Perhaps the boys who tend the chickens will pant after you, then!"

The royal family are the only ones to fully shave their heads, and RJ had already introduced the shaving thing in TGH.

Assuming that the Seanchan woman in Egwene's first dream is Tuon, then the sword is no doubt Justice - Rand's new sword, which once belonged to Hawkwing, and might have belonged to Guaire Amalasan as well. This goes along with my theory that Gawyn will Sheathe the Sword to strike a mortal blow at Rand, though obviously his motive will be different than I expected previous to TOM, and I no longer believe Rand will die from that wound (I believe Moiraine will balefire him to prevent his soul from being grabbed by the Dark One). Gawyn will probably die from a sword through the heart. If this happens, then it may be that the 'into the heart' prophecy could be interpreted another way, and that 'who draws it out' (deliberately gender-neutral?) might not be Narishma at all (though the dark man with the brightly shining object might still be him). I think it likely that 'who draws it out' will be Egeanin, and that she will redeem herself by presenting Justice to Tuon, and become Tuon's most loyal follower. (And Selucia, being a minor character, might well die in AMOL, but either way she is currently fulfilling four important positions for Tuon - servant, bodyguard, Voice, and Truthspeaker.) Most likely, Egeanin will go along for the ride when Mat goes to Illian.

There are actually many possible scenarios for where Mat will use the Horn, but I believe that the Caemlyn situation will mostly be resolved without it, or Logain's glory would presumably not amount to much. Mat might find it in time to save the Tower from the second Seanchan attack; he might not. (Tuon did consider making it her capital, and she might give it a new name in the Seanchan way.) The Tower might be attacked by Shadowspawn - that Waygate is presumably unguarded. But he has to take it to Illian for something, and it would be strange to see a major, pivotal, legend-worthy Mat vs. The Shadow battle in Illian. Tuon makes much more sense, especially if he cracks the nut as cleanly as Illian was cracked by his plan in the first place. Will he take the Heroes straight to Ebou Dar? In any case, for Tuon to save Egwene, it seems that she would have to change her mind about the a'dam beforehand. Perhaps Mat and Tuon will bargain, and then Mat will take Tuon's side against the monarchs.

Presumably, somewhere in the meantime Rand will be resurrected. When Mat blows the Horn, many will be expecting Rand to come to its call. But according to Nicola's Foretelling, I think it more likely that Rand will have already - barely - been resurrected by the time Mat blows it. (The body on the boat would have to be his new body - the one ripped from Tel'aran'rhiod.) In this way, Mat will 'betray' the fact that Rand is not dead, or maybe lead some people to believe that the balefire killed him permanently, but I think the former is more likely because it's a double Jesus-parallel and very cleverly 'reverse-engineered' (RJ's term for what he does with legend and myth to weave the story of WoT). Mat is one major source for the Judas stories, and his blowing of the Horn is a parallel to the empty tomb. He might know by the color-swirl ta'veren connection as soon as Rand is resurrected, but it may be that he does not think of Rand until after he blows the Horn. Either way he will be able to confirm that Rand is not dead.

And so, we proceed to the Dragon's Peace. Tuon has reached her hand out to Egwene, and they are now on the same team. Perhaps Tuon decided that the Oath Rod was an acceptable compromise for the a'dam. Perhaps she agreed to be bound by an Oath herself, to free the damane after the Last Battle. It seems likely from that perspective that Tuon might be the Seanchan woman with Egwene in this Dream:

TITLE - The Dragon Reborn
CHAPTER: 48 - Following the Craft

Rand in that dry, dusty chamber again, with those small creatures settling into his skin. Rand confronting a horde of Seanchan. Rand confronting her, and the women with her, and one of them was a Seanchan. It was all too confusing. She had to stop thinking about Rand and the others and put her mind to what was right ahead of her.

Of course, this could also happen at Merrilor, and in that case, the Seanchan woman in this Dream might be Egeanin, Seta, or Bethamin. After that...well, it may be that Tuon's prophecies are actually correct:

TITLE - The Gathering Storm
CHAPTER: 35 - A Halo of Blackness

The Last Battle would be between the Empire and the forces of the Dark One. Everybody knew that. The prophecies clearly showed that the Empress would defeat those who served the Shadow, and then she would send the Dragon Reborn in to duel with Lighteater.

In fact, it may be that Tuon ends up being the second woman in Rand's Callandor circle (it would be a neat way of fulfilling her prophecies in a way, and encouraging her to channel). In any case, I don't expect the Peace to be established until after Rand is resurrected, and I expect this to be primarily a big moment for the Aiel, though it may be that the damane issue is not resolved until then. One thing I expect to be very different from the future Aviendha saw, aside from that: I expect Tuon to be made Empress of all of Randland. Unlike Hawkwing, she seems to be content to leave national borders as they are, and even the rulers of each nation so long as they accept her as Empress. Channelers would probably serve the Empire in volunteer positions, military or otherwise, earning rank and honor the same way as everyone else. Many expect the Aiel to become peacekeepers, but I think it more likely they will renounce battle and return to the Way of the Leaf. In either case, I think that it's quite possible the Aiel will serve some role in the Empire as well.

Much of this is stuff I've gone on about before. The Horn, not so much. It's sort of a fledgling theory, so I'd be interested to hear what people say about it - particularly if you can think of any prophecies or possible foreshadowing that might shed light on the subject. (In other words, 'I don't believe that will happen' is not very helpful.) In particular I'd like to see some discussion on the link between the Horn and Illian. I will probably post on this subject again before AMOL comes out if I manage to logick out some more details. In any case, thanks for reading!

Quick Ben vs Vin - Can you write it?

I don't know about you guys, but I could sure use a Suvudu Cage Match write-up that just knocks my socks off. Anyone agree? I usually (not always, but usually) read a paragraph or two and I just feel all squirmy because it's so different from the prose of the original authors (who are usually more similar to each other in style than either is similar to the style of the Suvudu write-ups whether they are official or dropped in the comments). And then there are continuity issues to contend with (typically in the world or character details, since plot is mostly irrelevant). Well...okay, I admit that this is a really tough genre of fanfic to tackle. Crossovers! No one reads those, right? The only thing worse is bad smutfic.

So, I have an extra copy of The Way of Kings, first edition of course (some might see this as a bad thing, but too bad cause there is no second edition hardback yet so far as I know - if there is, I'll try to haggle a trade if you want). Presumably there are a lot of BrandonFans who would love to have a personalized copy of the book. I bet many of them are even MalazanFans, too. I'm going to JordanCon in two weeks, and judging based on previous experience, I can probably get Brandon to do something pretty crazy to your book, like maybe draw a picture for you (his drawings are amusingly bad), or give obscure hints on plot details, or deface your book with bad spelling and schizophrenic conversations with himself, or maybe I could even get him to insult you. He's a nice guy like that. And I bet some of you are more creative than me when it comes to deviant personalization requests. Creativity is, after all, what I am looking for here.

All that being said, I didn't ask his permission or anything. This is not an official contest - it's just me and a copy of TWOK. I'll take it and your specifications for personalization (so long as they are within reason of course) to JordanCon, where Brandon must sign books for The Man for one hour (mwahahaha), and then I will ship said personalized copy of TWOK anywhere in the world—free of charge, of course.

I want a good Quick Ben vs Vin. I don't care who wins in your story. I'm voting for QB but a crafty VinWin would be just as appreciated as a crafty BenWin - unlike Perrin, Vin actually has a believable chance to beat QB, and I would love to see that written well because I love convincing Underdog Wins scenarios. There are no real rules other than that it must be in English, and it must be QB vs Vin, and one of them must win - I'd suggest it being 500 words or more, but if you can knock my socks off in 100 words then by all means be my guest. If you want to write 20,000 words, be my guest (though it better be good because length alone won't cause you to win and if you don't interest me in the first 500 words or so...well, I'll be bored, and I would hate for you to go through all that effort just to bore me).

You can post it here or at the suvudu page for Quick Ben vs Vin (when it goes up), you can link it here or at the suvudu page, or you can email it to me at terez27@gmail.com (so long as you understand I'm going to post it if you win). You can enter it anonymously if you like, for whatever reason (though of course if you win you'll have to own up to who you are in email when you send me your mailing address unless you are willing to go through some convolutions to hide your location from me, which I assure you is not necessary). You can do a collaborative if you like but I only have one book. You can PayPal me (same email) for additional books or substitutions (so long as Brandon is the author), but no more than three altogether because I'll probably have to not only stand in line three times but also pull rank to get even that many signed. You can enter and defer the prize to a friend. Deadline will be Sunday April 10 2011 at 12 noon EST or 5pm GMT (24 hours before the match closes) - though I'd suggest thinking about how you want your book personalized before then since JordanCon is April 15-17.

One reason I'm doing this is because Brandon probably won't write his own version, partly because Steven Erikson isn't likely to participate, and partly because he doesn't know QB well enough to write him and has no desire to piss off Malazan fans by doing it badly (not that this is a foregone conclusion by any means, but it's understandable that Brandon would be a little wary about it). I'm just guessing there, but I think it's a good guess. So it's only appropriate for the fans to take charge. For those of you who don't know me...I'm not trying to promote my blog here or anything. I only post about WoT usually, and only intermittently at that. I'm just promoting good cagefiction. I mean, I JUST WANT A NICE, ENTERTAINING QUICK BEN VS VIN. That's all. It may be that the official write-up will be great - we shall see! - but I'm preempting the possibility that it won't be by posting this contest before it goes up.

I'm hoping that the Vin vs Quick Ben match will be both competitive and friendly. Let's do this in the spirit of celebrating the diverse entertaining reads that are Mistborn and Malazan, and in the spirit of reaching out across fandom lines to get to know each other in a good way. Sometimes it's hard...but for some reason, I'm thinking this is going to be a truly exciting match.


Update: Peter Ahlstrom (Brandon's assistant) notes in the comments that TWOK was in its third printing by release date, probably due to an underestimation of how much WoT would boost Brandon's sales. However, the point was that the first printings have a good number of typos. No corrected hardback editions have been released yet, though the paperback edition has hopefully been corrected.)

Gender and Sexuality in WoT

It is at least a little ironic that gender and sexuality inform some of the most important criticism of WoT, because in so many ways, RJ made great leaps along those lines in comparison to the fantasy authors that came before him, and in comparison to others of his generation. The very nature of the WoT world theoretically requires that RJ take an approach to gender roles and relationships that is more or less egalitarian, or even biased more toward females than toward males.

But in my experience, the most common criticism of WoT across the board - aside from the drag in the mid-late books - has to do with RJ's treatment of gender and sexuality. These criticisms are not entirely fabricated by people who don't like WoT because what happens in practice in WoT is often quite different from what we should theoretically expect. I have spent a good deal of time hanging out on WoT forums over the years, and I've also spent a good bit of time at Malazan Empire, and I've tried to keep up with the WoT threads at Westeros too, though I rarely post at the latter. Those two forums tend more to criticism of WoT than love for it, and I've also found much the same at other forums I've browsed, but those arguments are far from absent at WoT forums. You will even hear them from HCFFs like me from time to time. Why is that?

You can easily find similar criticisms from bloggers and journalists who are more respected in the WoT fandom than I am, such as Abby Goldsmith and Leigh Butler (ask around for one of the infamous pillow friend debates at her tor.com reread). These guys are big fans of WoT, and big fans of RJ, but they still feel the need to criticize. Why is that, do you think? I mean, can't we just shut up about it? RJ was inclusive of homosexuality, wasn't he? He was better at creating strong women than anyone in epic fantasy before him, wasn't he? Leigh in particular is often criticized by her readers for bringing up the subject so often, especially the pillow friends business. Why would she do that? Isn't once enough to make the point?

I can only speak for myself, but as someone who loves WoT more than most people, I of course agree with at least some of Brandon's reasoning here:

Brandon
Man, people sure are quick to accuse RJ of sexism on my twitter feed & facebook. I think any who do this are blatantly wrong.
Brandon
It's okay to not like the books, or to think RJ did a bad job w/characterizations. I disagree, but everyone's tastes are different.
Brandon
But he took great pains to create many strong female protagonists with a variety of strengths, and gave them their own stories.
Brandon
Yes, there are (More than a few) sexist people in the wot. And the culture has been influenced by the male/female interactions of the power.
Brandon
However, if you look at the time devoted to female viewpoints--and the plots of those characters--the "RJ is sexist" theory erodes.
 Brandon
As a nod to those who truly know feminist literary theory, I'll make a less "Twitter friendly" argument. Robert Jordan, by creating a world where the women and men are very aware of gender roles, spent a lot of time delving into these topics. I'm convinced he was aware of male privilege, and though biased--as all of us are--sought very hard to overcome his own biases by creating evocative female characters with plot lines that do not center around the obtaining of favor or romantic interest from male characters. He also sought to create a world where women were not defined by how they were viewed by men, but were instead defined by their intelligence, determination, and accomplishments. In this way, though he exposes some small masculine biases in various areas, he was extremely progressive as a dominant male writer of his era, and should be regarded as anything other than "sexist" for his efforts. /Scholarly Brandon

I've seen much the same from him before. I understand that it is his job now to defend RJ's legacy - he has said as much in the past - and I also understand that he might have even been inclined to give the same defense even if it were not his job to do so. But I do think that the issue of sexism in WoT needs to be addressed, and I believe it needs to be addressed on a regular basis, despite the fact that because most people's opinions won't change right now. It needs to be addressed because to ignore the subject is passive acceptance of it, and in order for these biased cultural norms to actually change, we have to reject them, even if we respect the source. Why? Because this is not about RJ - who is, after all, one of my heroes (along with Bach and Chopin) - but about the world in which we live.

On searching for some links, I noticed that someone else already blogged on this subject. For the record, I disagree that WoT was not progressive in this area. It certainly was, especially in the context of blockbusters in the genre and RJ's generation. Extremely progressive. As an advocate against sexual repression, I find that there is a lot to like in WoT. But it cannot be denied that all of RJ's steps in the direction of sexual freedom for women are filtered through the eyes of his generation, despite the fact that he was ahead of his peers, and they are filtered through the preferences of a heterosexual male. The result of that is sexism, plain and simple.

I agree with Brandon that RJ does not really deserve to be remembered as a sexist. Some might also say that Martin Luther doesn't deserve to be remembered as an antisemite... (Did I just Godwin this post? If so, I'll preempt it with a warning to take it with a grain of salt.) ...and that's true too, in his cultural context. Even my hero Chopin was guilty of antisemitism (not completely sure about Bach, but I would be rather surprised and delighted if his hands were clean). But most fortunately, Martin Luther and Bach and Chopin mostly remembered for their accomplishments, despite the fact that most scholars recognize that Luther in particular (since we are all probably familiar with those writings) was indeed rather racist, from an objective perspective. It is important to recognize this fact because it is important to recognize, from a progressive perspective, that Luther's opinions were wrong.

The sexual freedom of the women might not be so important if WoT weren't so sexually charged - and despite its mostly safe-for-children approach to sexuality (mostly via means of aiming over their heads), WoT is rather sexually charged. I love RJ, and I will always be one of his biggest fans, but just because RJ passed the Bechdel Test with flying colors does not mean that these wrongs should not be addressed. As for my various readings of the common criticisms, I find that at non-WoT forums, it is more common to find a general criticism of RJ's ability to create female characters who are both likeable and believable, but at WoT forums, I find that the frustration at this fact is vented on the female characters themselves, as if they were real people...and I have to wonder if that is a particularly healthy way to go about it. It's not even close to a small problem at WoT forums - it's pervasive.

Like Luther, I hope that RJ will be remembered mostly for his accomplishments, but I also hope that the sexism in WoT will one day be as widely-recognized as the racism in Luther's writing (though these wrongs are not precisely comparable - keep the grain of salt in mind). When that happens, then it probably won't be necessary for people like me to harp on the subject again and again, but so long as there is such a fierce defensive reaction every time the subject is raised, then it will be necessary to keep bringing it up. Why? To quote Oscar Wilde: 'Life imitates art far more than art imitates life.'

I love RJ, and I love WoT - again, more than most - but I want the world to change.

/Scholarly Terez

PS - For those who were reading my blog, I'm sorry about taking off. My life has been a trainwreck lately (which is, of course, all my fault). I will be back, and I'm not precisely going anywhere anyway. :)

Update (March 12 10:58 pm):

Brandon

I can see where you're coming from, but I still think almost everything (including the things in Abby's essay, which I've read) are more importantly aligned with Robert Jordan trying to create a realistic world where the One Power's gender imbalance has affected things, mixed with his attempts to create cultures with Earth parallels somewhere in the mid 1800's. Simply put, if there WEREN'T some of these gender imbalances in cultures, the books wouldn't feel realistic. Once we remove that, we're left with a few of the smaller things--the spanking issue, the issue of female nudity, treatments of homosexuality, and the narrative's fondness for noticing female anatomy. Much smaller issues, I believe, though still there. (I think the female nudity, by the way, is RJ trying to approach some of the concepts of the 'sacred feminine' as you see in feminist writings by people like Plath and Sexton--in which female nudity and menstruation are often associated with ritual and power.)

Terez

I didn't read all of the conversations you had about it on Twitter and Facebook, and I didn't really have gender roles in mind so much as other things. I understand what you're saying about how his world requires certain gender imbalances - I addressed that sort of offhandedly in my post by saying that the 'in practice' roles in WoT are often not what you would theoretically expect considering the circumstances. And while RJ often made comparisons to various time periods in the real world in reference to technology in particular, I'm not talking about that - I'm talking about the theoretical result of the history of the WoT world. Many of the gender imbalances are logical, but many are not, which is why they don't feel realistic at all to many readers.

The main problem I had with your comments is that you said that anyone who accused RJ of sexism for whatever reason was 'blatantly wrong'. You sort of trivialize those things that we are 'left with' after cutting away the complex and subjective debate over gender roles, but those things we are left with are so pervasive in the novels that they give an overall impression of an old-fashioned and often casually sexist man behind the curtain. This is a big turn-off for some people, and while I feel that those who cannot overlook it are missing out on one of the greatest stories of all time, I understand that it is a legitimate complaint.

As for the female nudity...just no. :p I mean, I know you read all the interviews at one point. 'No Male Nudity' (NMN) was not quite as popular as RAFO, but it was definitely one of his favorite stock answers (especially in reference to movie questions - it was his 'one rule') for a good few years. He was pretty blatant about his preferences there, and while I'm sure he had several cultural influences in mind, in the end it's pretty clear that he just enjoyed writing about naked women more than he enjoyed writing about naked men.

I agree that it's wrong to judge RJ as a *person* anachronistically, but at the same time, I think it's wrong to make such a blanket statement about the veracity of our claims of sexism in WoT. It's there, and it's real. I agree that some people take the criticism too far without considering certain things - I've had these debates (on non-WoT forums especially) many times over the years - but it seems to me more constructive to criticize the exaggerations, or to criticize each argument on its own merits, than to denounce any and all claims of sexism in WoT in one fell swoop.

Update (March 14, 2011 4:44 pm):

Brandon

The "Blatantly Wrong" comment was for those who don't really know feminist theory or gender studies, and who were commenting that sexist characters and culture implied a sexist Robert Jordan. I thought better of it later, however, for the people who actually know what they're talking about. Hence the more scholarly comment directed toward people like yourself. I do not deny that there are things to talk about here. Remember, just like with the word "Racism," there are two meanings of the word "Sexist." There is the knee-jerk usage by people who intend it as an insult. And then there is the more thoughtful, careful usage by people who make a study of such things. In their hands, 'sexist' means showing one's biases and a lack of awareness of certain aspects of male privilege or gender sensitivity--using this word to describe someone is not an insult, but a description of bias. (The types of biases that we all have, and can't totally expunge--though we be aware of and try to compensate for them.) My first comment was directed at the first crowd; my second comment at the second crowd.

Terez

Okay, that's fair enough. I tried searching your comments for an implication like that but couldn't find anything concrete.

Update (20 March 2011 5:19 am):

(This should be the last update as Brandon is planning on doing a blog post, presumably. If he does that I might respond in another post...unless, of course, I agree with everything he says, in which case I'll just link it here.)

Brandon on Twitter - 20 March 2011 

Re: NMN. I'll give you this point in regards to Rhuidean. No good reason for Aviendha to be nude when Rand/Mat don't have to be.
Brandon
As for the Aes Sedai ceremonies, they still feel very similar to sacred feminine ceremonies I've read before.
Terez
Sure, but most of the female nudity comes in the sweat tents and baths, etc. Though the baths in Fal Dara were egalitarian.
Terez
The descriptions of how Aviendha squats in the sweat tent, for instance, are really quite vulgar if you think about it.
Terez
But you don't see anything like that in the bath scene at Baerlon, for example. And even ritual nudity can get vulgar...
Terez
...like Amys at the sister-bonding ceremony in WH. I mean, come on.
James Powell
There's certainly lots o female iffy WoT nudity, but also quite a lot of male nudity - especially Rand being ogled.
Terez
Yeah, Rand does get ogled once at least. But it's a matter of balance in my opinion.
Terez
Greatest Cadsuane line ever: 'I’ve already seen more of your hairless bottomcheeks than I wish to...'
Terez
'....but if you want to flaunt them in front of all six of us, perhaps someone will enjoy the show.' :)
James Powell
I'm not saying that the nudity issue is balanced - clearly, it's not. But at least *some* effort was being made.
Terez
Yeah, @BrandSanderson and I have gone round a bit on this already. We all recognize that some effort was made. Just saying...
Terez
...that these things were the product of RJ's heterosexual male preferences, and therefore inherently sexist.
Seth Baker
Based largely upon the male characters being prudes. Doesn't that cut the other way for M/F sexual experience?
Terez
Not really, since the root cause is still RJ's brain. And Mat. Is far from a prude.
Terez
But we're at the same time not trying to make RJ out to be particularly sexist. He wasn't, especially for his Age.
James Powell
*nods* I'm more saddened by the almost complete lack of gay WoT characters - but that's just my personal bias.
Terez
No, it's not just your personal bias. It was RJ's. If there hadn't been lesbians you probably wouldn't care, eh?
James Powell
I actually found the whole issue of some women being "pillow friends", but then growing out of it and mooning over men, quite off.
Terez
Right, and the fact that the ones who don't grow out of it are for the most part evil bitches.
Lira Leirner
There are SOME implications of being gay being equally as normal, as outlined here http://ow.ly/4imXS
Terez
Oh, we know. But it's a half-hearted implication. Not even close to half really...
Brandon
Well, at least there wasn't the "Gay=pedophile" implication that some fantasy of the era made...
Brandon
Of course, being Mormon, perhaps I'm not the best qualified to speak of someone's treatment of LGBT issues.
Luckers
Are you sure the nudity doesn't play a practical role in the ter'angreal? I note that in both the...
Luckers
...Accepted rings and the final test the woman must be nude. Strange, two separate rituals taking the same form.
Lira Leirner
And Moiraine, too. I think it's probably the rings. The other testing ter'angreal all require nakedness.
Lira
Aviendha doesn't have to be naked when she goes through the columns. Although I thought they could have told...
Lira
...them to take off their clothes once they're in Rhuidean; don't see needing to taking them off before.
Terez
It's not a requirement of the ter'angreal according to them, but a sign of station¹ (humbling).
Terez
Also, with Aviendha, there was the practical aspect of giving up her cadin'sor.
Terez
It's the same with the raisings at the Tower - they never wear those clothes again IIRC.²
Brandon
I think Terez's argument is that women end up in these situations suspiciously more often than men.
Terez
Essentially yes. And that the description is more gratuitous. RJ could have chosen to write male nudity rituals.
Luckers
Mmm. True, but as I've argued in the past re: lack of gay men--we've been more exposed to all female...
Luckers
...organisations and rituals. the one exception, I suppose, is the sweat tents, but again that occurred...
Luckers
...organically. The Wise Ones were planning, and the sweat tents provided a social medium.
Luckers
BTW my original point was simply that Moiraine and Aviendha's nudity may have served a practical purpose...
Luckers
...when going through the ter'angreal--Mat and Rand didn't go through that ter'angreal after all.
Luckers
It's strange that the Aes Sedai and Wise Ones separately built nudity rituals around similar ter'angreal. Necessary?³
Terez
Organically? You say that as if the scene wrote itself. RJ chose to use female sweat tent scenes, female nudity.
Terez
Even if the nudity does have a practical purpose that doesn't change the fact that he chose to write it that way.
Terez
He chose to develop the female organizations, and he chose to show lesbians outside those organizations rather than men.
Luckers
He chose to write the scene with Rand naked and being eyed by a dozen women too. So what?
Terez
Again, it's about balance. The 'suspiciously more often' bit. I feel you are being overly defensive about it.
Luckers
Are we to presume he did it lasciviously? To titillate? This is what I meant by it happening organically.
Luckers
I'm not being defensive--rather I don't see the problem. The female nudity was never vulgar... it just was.
Terez
As I said, it's clear enough he just enjoyed writing about naked women and lesbians more than he enjoyed...
Terez
....writing about naked men and gay men. It's fanservice, but I don't think he thought of it like that.
Brandon
I've got to side with Terez on this one. It IS there. RJ did a LOT of things with great equality, but...
Brandon
...when it came to nudity, he liked showing naked women more than men. I don't think it was vulgar, though.
Terez
Depends on your definition of vulgar. RJ was very good at avoiding vulgarity on the surface, but hinting at it.
Luckers
I still think that implies a little too much premeditation in the depiction, but I'm happy with your description.
Luckers
I'm not denying its presence, I'm denying the implications that the depiction is wrong. It flowed naturally...
Luckers
...from the plot, and wasn't lascivious. I certainly don't think RJ worked to include it.
Luckers
Besides... if you wanna have a gay male character in aMoL I'd not complain. :)
Terez
Okay then. Do you think that RJ's insistence that there be no male nudity in the films was 'organic'?
Terez
That is where this little debate started, because it is essentially the proof of the point.
Brandon
Ha. Well (though I'm on your side) it could be argued that's a marketing decision.
Terez
LOL. Many things could be argued. Some arguments are more logical than others, though. :)
Luckers
I didn't know about this insistence. That's a little... weird, honestly. No, ok, a lot weird.
Terez
See, if you had actually read my debate with @BrandSanderson we wouldn't have to catch you up. ;)
Brandon
It's cultural, unfortunately. You can have female nudity and get a PG-13. But not male. Of course, that...
Brandon
...leads us to the whole topfreedom debate, which ISN'T something I really want to get into.
Terez
It doesn't necessarily lead there. Again, I bring it up mostly for cultural awareness reasons.
Luckers
That's really stupid--but does make some sense. Also, I don't know if you remember Terez but for a while there was...
Luckers
...some fairly rampant pockets of homophobia amongst the fandom--I had this discussion with @zemaille at WorldCon.⁴
Terez
There still is. It's mostly visible at tor.com - some staunch conservatives there.⁵
Linda
Oh yeah!
Terez
Which is unfortunate considering Leigh's views. There is a ruckus every time she brings it up.
Luckers
*nods* And as sad as it is to think that RJ was wary of this--it's reasonable to avoid alienating your fans.
Terez
Well, if he was trying to avoid alienating THOSE fans he wouldn't have included lesbians either.
Luckers
Mmm. Lesbians have always been the safer homosexual depiction--which says alot about our society.
Seth Baker
In the end, you're indicting modern Western society, not RJ himself. He knew what you can't do and sell.
Terez
The first bit, yes. The second bit...I don't think that marketing was his only motive.
Seth
There're people who are not morally opposed to homosexuality, are fine with reading FF, but not MM for what it's worth.
Terez
And that is exactly the problem that is being addressed. Not judging RJ so much as ourselves.
Luckers
I hesitate to ask--but what's topfreedom. My mind went to an icky place. :S
Terez
LOL. I imagine it has to do with the fact that men can go shirtless but women can't.
Luckers
OH! That's... much nicer than what I was thinking. Hehe.
Luckers
I will say this, though--the complete lack of any sort of hetero-normative assumption⁶ in WoT gets RJ my vote.
Brandon
I wish this plane would let me use Tweetlonger to jump into this with more teeth.
Terez
Feel free to jump in with teeth later. We're not going anywhere. :)
Luckers
Yes. More teeth would be awesome! But we aren't going anywhere.
Brandon
This whole issue--homosexuality, conservatism, and the WoT--deserves a serious, thoughtful post.
Brandon
I just can't do that in 100 character bursts.
Terez
Cool. I am looking forward to it.
Luckers
I respect that Brandon. Still, post what you want--we understand its not your full argument.
Brandon
I will say that there IS a gay male in TofM, placed there on my part as I felt similar to you on this issue.
Brandon
I was going to tell you who it was, but figuring this out is the sort of thing you guys love, isn't it?
Terez
YAY! But of course, then you have to be careful not to make him too throw-away....
Terez
I considered Androl earlier, when I considered you might do this. lol. But I will think on it some more.
Luckers
Oh. Hey! Awesome. Ok, now we have to figure it out.
Luckers
Hopefully not Denezel or Hatch⁷--their wives would be furious. :D
Brandon
Yes. I won't say if it's a new character or one I made a decision on, since there weren't notes either way.
Terez
And he seems to have ruled out Moridin, alas. But that would be sort of Dumbledore-y anyway.⁸
Terez
(And yes, I have read @BrandSanderson's thoughts on Dumbledore. Just saying. And we're not talking kids' books here.)
Luckers
I'm beginning to think it somewhat strange that I'm the one defending RJ the heaviest given your points...
Luckers
... and the fact that I'm gay. Does that mean my loyalty to RJ defies reason, or that I'm so used to accepting...
Luckers
...the dribbles that are depictions of homosexuality in fantasy? A disturbing thought.
Terez
Nah, not weird at all. You're pretty anti-activist in a lot of ways. Overcompensation, of course. ;)
Terez
I believe you are sensitive to the right-wing idea of the Gay Agenda.
Terez
So you seem to have a reluctance to champion your own causes too loudly, internally as well as externally.
Terez
In some ways it's a healthy reluctance. In some ways, it's sad that it is necessary.
Luckers
Well the gays are plotting world domination--we discussed this in our last High Council. But that's another conversation.
Brandon
You have good reason to defend him, Luckers. There ARE good examples. Arrela is one.
Terez
Seonid isn't bad either. Right? :D I think they might have been responses to the criticism.
Luckers
*nods* Arrela's love was beautiful. And your scene in tGS was heartbreaking.
Brandon
Yes, gay men are few and far between. But it could be much worse. See: Eddings, or worse, Goodkind and Newcomb.

Seth Baker
I'm with you on that. I got bored reading Goodkind because of how annoyingly ANTI-PC it was.
Seth
In the end, I want my stories to refrain from editorializing. Tell the story, and tell it to your audience.
Brandon
Goodkind is...well, let's not go there. It's good, sometimes, to be anti-PC, as the world isn't PC.
Brandon
But if you're going to delve in and editorialize, I believe it important to look at the other side too.

Terez

I haven't read Newcomb, but yes, Goodkind's inclusion was of the worst sort.

Terez
Again, few people think RJ is all bad on this. But the fact that we are so appreciative of his rather biased...
Terez
...and gratuitous inclusion shows how far behind we are as a society.
Brandon
Ha. Terez, you NEED to read Newcomb. If only because I want to see your head explode when you do.
Terez
LOL. Well, I will bring it along to JordanCon then, so you can observe. ;)
Brandon
It is an incredible experience. Goodkind times 1000 in the anti-feminist department. And it seems unconsious.
Luckers
Goodkind disturbs me on more levels than that, but I do take your point--it was what I meant by accepting dribbles.
Brandon
The thing is, [RJ] tried. And in the end, that's the most important thing can ask. The second is that they listen.
Brandon
And I do think RJ listened. I think he grew more sensitive on this subject as time passed.
Terez
Agreed, as I noted before re: the response to criticism. Again, it's more about us than about him.
Luckers
Interesting thought--about listening and changing. Kind of beautiful as well--that fans can give back to authors.
Luckers
That RJ touched on it at all was good--especially when we remember when he was writing these books.
Luckers
It does well to remember just how much the degree to which homosexuality is depicted has changed recently.
Terez
This is true. I just feel that now is the time to blow it out of the water, for that very reason.
Brandon
I'm curious if either of you read Rose of the Prophet, and what you thought of it. (Because of the gay male character.)
Terez
hmm, nope, haven't heard of it. I was told Deathgate was the only thing by [Weiss and Hickman] worth reading.
Luckers
Do you guys realise how much Rand's early arc resonates with a gay teenager?
Luckers
A young man who--through no choice of his own--finds himself to be something hated and feared.
Luckers
Something judged to be morally wrong though no moral choice has been made on his part.
Luckers
The whole arc--the 'men's pride, men's sin' resonated very heavily with me.
Brandon
That's FASCINATING, honestly. I'd never thought of that.
Terez
I bet RJ never thought of it either. :D But yes, it's a good comparison in many ways.
Luckers
All of this is why I never liked Mat in my first readings (when i was like 13). His reaction to Rand was...
Luckers
... a little to close to home. And no I havn't read [Rose of the Prophet]--I will now though. (sorry for going on this tangent).
Luckers
It doesn't really matter to me if RJ meant the comparison--that he depicted something similar with such...
Luckers
...visceral realism is the value of a great writer, because then the fans can take what they need from it.
Luckers
And in truth Rand's arc in dealing with it taught me how to. In fact its one of the reasons I love Cadsuane...
Terez
Because Cadsuane was Rand's faghag? No wait, that was Min! No, she was his beard...
Luckers
She doesn't feel sorry for Rand, or try to coddle him--she treats him like she would any other person...
Luckers
Her refusal to let Rand allow circumstance to victimize him was a powerful and subtle theme.
Terez
Indeed, that's why I like her. And why most people hate her. Because she should respect his authoritay!
Luckers
And I think it is the greatest service anyone in the books has done him. Even if Rand couldn't appreciate it.
Luckers
Re: Parallels between Rand's early arc and being gay... http://tl.gd/9d303a

Quote:

"No, I can't. I mean . . . I didn't do it on purpose. It just happened. I don't want to - to channel the Power. I won't ever do it again. I swear it."

"You don't want to," the Amyrlin Seat said. "Well, that's wise of you. And foolish, too. Some can be taught to channel; most cannot. A few, though, have the seed in them at birth. Sooner or later, they wield the One Power whether they want to or not, as surely as roe makes fish. You will continue to channel, boy. You can't help it. And you had better learn to channel, learn to control it, or you will not live long enough to go mad. The One Power kills those who cannot control its flow."

"How am I supposed to learn?" he demanded. Moiraine and Verin just sat there, unruffled, watching him. Like spiders. "How? Moiraine claims she can't teach me anything, and I don't know how to learn, or what. I don't want to, anyway. I want to stop. Can't you understand that? To stop!"

--That desperation is something I remember. Then this...

Quote:

He paused, frowning, thinking things through. Finally, he said quietly, "Rand, can you channel?" Mat gave a strangled gasp. Rand let the banner drop; he hesitated only a moment before nodding wearily. "I did not ask for it. I don't want it. But. . . . But I do not think I know how to stop it."

--and finally...

Quote:

Mat hesitated, looking sideways at Rand. "Look, I know you came along to help me, and I am grateful. I really am. But you just are not the same anymore. You understand that, don't you?" He waited as if he expected an answer. None came. Finally he vanished into the trees, back toward the camp.

--Potent scenes. Especially Mat's last lines. *shrug*

Terez
Yeah, I knew exactly what you were talking about as soon as you mentioned it. Perrin isn't much better.
Terez
Perrin is just not as thoughtlessly hurtful as Mat is. He's more the silent disapproval type.
Luckers
Though Perrin does realise the hypocrisy, and feel bad, so I didn't mind so much. :)
Linda
Yes, I appreciated Perrin's sympathy and tact - like when he said Rand is now a dreaded figure.
Linda
For instance he suggested that while running was understandable, it might not be possible.
Linda
Of course, Perrin is coming to terms with being a werewolf, so understandable he knows how Rand feels.
Luckers
And with Perrin the parallel stops--Rand is a genuine threat, whereas homosexuality isn't.
Linda
Both Perrin and Rand loathe themselves because they feel they are a threat to society.
Luckers
Just got a rather abrupt tweet from someone who I think thought I was implying Rand was gay.
Luckers
Which clearly is accurate. The Harem are the Red-herring to end all red-herrings.
Terez
LOL. Yeah, well...ignorance and prejudice go hand in hand (or so they say). ;)
Terez
You know you're gay when you need THREE beards to maintain your cover.
Luckers
Lol!
Brandon
And...half of my in-flight wot reread time was sucked up by a great twitter conversation about gender and LGBT issues in the WoT.
Terez
Ohhhh, blame it on us will you! :p You knew as soon as you saw you had Twitter you weren't getting any work done. ;)
Luckers
Haha. Yeah--I've written a hundred and fifty words in three hours. Today was gonna be my productive day too. *sigh*/
Brandon
I have a new goal: to get Terez and Leigh Butler to do a feminist review of Newcomb's 5th Sorceress for Tor.com. How can I make this happen?
Peter Ahlstrom
Sadist.
Terez
LOL. If you can talk Leigh into it, I'm so down with that.
Luckers
Lol. A gay, a feminist and a Mormon walk into a bar--whereupon they have a deep and meaningful conversation about sexuality in WoT. #NoJokes
Terez
LMAO. It's funny, though...I don't really think of myself as a feminist. Just an equalist.
Luckers
I was just being funny with the no jokes thing--the reality of us three having that conversation struck me.
Terez
Not to mention, you were raised Catholic, and I was raised Southern Baptist. Now we need a Muslim...